E113: James Dias, CEO and Founder of Wellbe – Interview

June 1, 2017


This is a great interview with James Dias. James is the co-Founder and CEO of Wellbe. Wellbe is a Health IT company that makes it easy for providers to engage patients during their treatment. This includes guided patient journeys, better coordinated care and real time insights.

James is also in Madison, so I was able to do this interview in person.

There are lots of Health IT companies out there now, but when James started Wellbe back in 2008 there were very few. We get to hear about James’ journey and what he’s excited about now.

Here are some other things we talk about:

-How does Wellbe help patients?
-When you first started what was the reaction from providers?
-What have you learned about selling to providers?
-Where do you want to take Wellbe?
-What makes you happy throughout the week?



Dave Kruse: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Flyover Labs and today we get to talk to James Dias and we get to do it in person because James is also in Madison. So James is the Co Founder and CEO of Wellbe. Wellbe is a health IT company which makes it easier for providers to engage patients during their treatment and so this includes guided patient journeys, better coordinated care and real time insights. So what’s interesting is there are lots of health IT companies out there now, but when James started Wellbe back in 2008, there were not nearly as many. So I am curious to learn more about Wellbe: how he started it, the reaction from providers when he first started and where James wants to take Wellbe now. So James, thanks for joining us today.

James Dias: Oh! Terrific to be here.

Dave Kruse: Before we can get into what you’re doing now, can you tell us a little bit about your background?

James Dias: My background?

Dave Kruse: Yeah.

James Dias: Well, pertinent to the subject at hand, I think I am a cognitive inventor and a creative type. When you come from that orientation, I have always had that orientation ever since I can remember, since I started keeping track.

Dave Kruse: Really? What was one of the first things? Do you remember anything?

James Dias: Ten years old, twelve years old, going into high school, more of an inventor creating things, making things, writing songs, making movies, these were all – you had a pattern of creative enterprise very young and I think I’ve stuck to my guns about that ever since.

Dave Kruse: Do you think it came from just innately or did you think it came from your parents or from somebody or it was just like you know…

James Dias: I think I would attribute something to my father who was very much a sort of a problem solver or make your own stuff kind of guy. I don’t remember us – I remember my dad making furniture and making all kind of contractions around the house to you know house hold aids and things like that, just solving things. I think I picked up a lot of that from him as you know, just reach out and make something to solve something right then and there on the fly and that has kind of become my essential DNA and I’ve taken it to many, many levels from that point on, yeah.

Dave Kruse: Okay, all right. So after high school and college, what did you do?

James Dias: Well, high school was very science oriented. I had a proclivity for you know a lot of science and physics and chemistry and biology and I firmly thought I was on my way to an engineering or a science field. So I went to college at my first year in collage which I received a full scholarship for. It was to be a biomedical engineer and this is an interesting story that will come all the way back around, and went to school and the first year of collage which was at one of the earliest university in Bahrain where I grew up and went to high school. I discovered the curriculum was absolutely devoid of anything creative. It was a highly, highly regimented science oriented curriculum and it really dampened my enthusiasm for the entire field. I said, well heck with this. I am not going to do this. This is not really what I thought it was about, which was an unfortunate decision I think at that time, but I didn’t just – I wanted to build things, I wanted to make things and they were convinced that they only got to make things when you completed a degree or something and I was like, ‘What the heck?’ [Cross Talk] Right, I wanted to be hands on in creating and so I had also had a parallel passion in film making as a teenager. I had my own business doing wedding videos and birthday videos and this is in the very early days of video technology and I had been something of an entrepreneur and said, ‘Ha, well there is something I can fall back on’ and so I convinced my parents to put down the money for an education in the United States to go pursue filmmaking and so I came to the US and I spent four years studying filmmaking in the arts and the things of that nature, communications, video, production and all those kind of things. I really enjoyed that and I was really in my zone.

Dave Kruse: What school was it?

James Dias: Well I went to Northern Michigan University. Part of the bargain that I made to my parents was that I would go to a school where they knew somebody and that happened to be my parish priest and he came from that parish. It’s a very odd sort of circumstance. It was a tradeoff I was willing to make. I was like, oh yeah! I will get to go to the states and so I went off and there I was. So they still to this date have a pretty good film making program tucked away there up in Northern Michigan, run by the same guy who taught me and it was great. It was reasonably well equipped that he had all of the makings of a good program because he had emulated things that he had done you know in one of the biggest schools, so it was fantastic. So I thought I was on track to go to film making you know, so I completed that and went to graduate school and stayed in touch with the film making industry. I did a lot of industrial videos and all kinds of things in that arena and then I think for visa reasons and things like that I started becoming a little bit more cautious about my choices.

Dave Kruse: What year was that about?

James Dias: This is like the ’89-ish.

Dave Kruse: Okay.

James Dias: I got a little more cautious about my choices and I though, how many people are going to hire me as a film maker, so I better get a backup. So I did one of those classic things, a back up, and then it all sort of rolled over from there, so I ended up with – I was a member of the faculty at a collage for few years, five years actually, also teaching all these things and then the bug got back to me and said, no you got to get back into this creative world that you would like to be in. So I jumped ship from there and got together with a group of guys and we started a new company in Pittsburg called The Sextant Group. It’s actually still around and doing really, really well and that was a kind of consulting company that was putting technology solutions together in the early days 80’s, 90’s you know doing those kind of work. And then I shunted off onto the track that I find myself on today, basically building technology solutions for companies and it started in PC’s and networking and then the web came along and then software, the opportunities to do things in software came along and I just stayed on that track.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. Did you have any project back then that you are particularly of interest or you are fond of or doing all for the PC or internet?

James Dias: Yeah, you know I did a lot. I was fortunate to be involved in a lot of very exciting projects. I worked on one with an enormous team at IBM, building the first digital library at IUPUI, Indian University and Purdue University in Indianapolis. I worked on one of the first – what do you call it, digital surgical theaters at the medical college of Ohio where they were convinced that they could bring in video and computing technology to teach live surgical procedures around the world and we created that. And it was a very inter disciplinary team made up of architects and technologists and surgeons and – you are going to start to see this thread coming through here and we designed that project you know at performing arts building. There was a lot of different very interesting projects that we always had, provided me with an opportunity to be part of a creative team that was applying technology in new ways.

Dave Kruse: And do you think that your – I mean while we are we’ll get into this, but tell us about your story pillar of your movie production background?

James Dias: There’s two things that I credit for. I think the days that I spent in the classroom were very valuable to me. I learned some skills on teaching skills and discussion skills and how to take a course for and then of course yeah, I think the film making was a discipline that I had sort of picked up on my own and studied, and so the whole idea of a narrative being used to structure an outcome has always remained with me. Even as a software designer even if you talk to my team here today – although I never make it explicit in the work that I do, it feels a lot of the vision that we have for even the products here, because the product here is conceived of as a patient journey.

Dave Kruse: Yeah, quite about right.

James Dias: Exactly, so it has a structure to it. We are taking people through different stages of the structure and we tend to think that way.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. Yeah, I mean the other thing is, think about in stories when we grew up as much – I mean you did, but like when you get older, that’s how people learn and that’s how people get motivated through stories right. But most of us are not very good at story telling.

James Dias: And it’s funny though, you have such a dedication to stories and I am still a very big movie buffer. I’ve been for years and years. It’s been hard for me. It’s sort of like the musician that writes a song and then you go, well explain how you wrote that song. It’s hard to sort out of all break it down and make it into a methodology. It’s still difficult to do that you know. It’s sort of part of the gift I guess you get and then it’s very hard to translate that in to a design methodology or something like that. Although it’s been fun. I mean I think the team has picked up a lot of those kinds of ways of working. I’m very fortunate to have a CTO who is totally synchronized with me and a part of what I would attribute to his ability to do that is that he is a Ph.D. in English literature. So he also has an affinity to the narrative and so we are two guys sort of sitting here contemplating software design for consumers in healthcare and all have sort of a frame work between them that has to do with a conversational model and narrative styles and things like that, so it’s kind of interesting.

Dave Kruse: That is interesting, the Ph.D., that’s great. All right so eventually you came to Madison and you work for Sonic Foundry. Like when was that and how did you get connected with Sonic Foundry?

James Dias: Sonic started doing work with a company I was at in Pittsburgh called Media Site, which was a spin off from Carnegie Mellon University, that had essential invented the first video search engine. So at the same time that Lycos had been created, remember way back then, Lycos was created. A group of people in that same gene pool split off and said, hey, we can create some things to allow people to search video, but you know in the 90’s, the early 90’s – spry mid-90’s and going into the 2000’s when there was a lot of digital content out there. If you went on the early web there wasn’t a whole lot of video, so there wasn’t much to search. This is the classic case of a company that had a product ahead of its time, the search engine, but Sonic was very much in to video creation business and so I had an affinity to that company and it started talking about partnerships and all kinds of things that we could be doing together. So I had made some treks to Madison a couple of times on that front and then they acquired us in order to bring it in as part of their whole portfolio and I came to Madison as part of the acquisition. There was Skunk Works that a group of us were working on behind the scenes to solve a lack of digital video problem. We came up with a black box that actually could make a lot of video and I was a part of that group and when I joined Sonic Foundry and came in as part of the acquisition over a series of different events, the CEO said hey, you know you need to help me take that product and grow that product and it was called the Media Site, and that’s what I was primarily charged with.

Dave Kruse: Interesting, okay. So would you get a product over there or more in sales or a little of both?

James Dias: Yeah, it’s when you are taking an early product to market and we’re sort of moving it from what I would call the napkin stage to commercializing it, you wear a lot of different hats. You have to be entrepreneur in orientation, but you’ve also got to be able to be multi disciplinary. You got to be able to talk to technical people and sales people and all kinds of things and sort of pull a young fledgling team together to say, how do we solve all these things, including the business model, including revenue, pricing, branding, all those things. So we had a little group that did that and worked it through and I sort of was the leader of that band to take that process through and that really…

Dave Kruse: It’s a good experience.

James Dias: It’s a very good experience and it’s also one that you can get hooked on if you’ve got the particular affinity that someone like me does, which is to take inventions and turn them into commercial products, that’s what you want to do and so that’s what I have been doing you know and it’s one of several start ups that I have worked through that take it from napkin and moved it to the commercial stage, and so when it came – when I had the chance to do it for myself here at Wellbe, I did it again.

Dave Kruse: And before we move over, is there anything in your past that you wish you would have done different. You know any lessons learned. I know you mentioned the bio medical thing that maybe you should have [cross talk] but is there anything else that you look back and like, I should have done this differently or should have – yeah…

James Dias: I don’t know. I mean you look back and you try to sort out the choices you made. I had an orientation towards med school. I decided that med school by itself wouldn’t be the right thing for me and that I needed to be in a creative field and therefore bio med was the right idea, because I thought, Ah! I could make things that help people get better, rather than just sort of act upon them surgically or medically, and so that was a choice and that I think sort of choice making has directed a lot of other choices over time. But I’ve always had an affinity towards health oriented or medical oriented things. It’s been an ongoing fascination about a field there’s obviously in the healthcare field there’s an enormous amount of innovation that takes place on the bio medical side and gene side and I have kept track of all of that stuff, but I never really thought that I would have the opportunity to be a contributor in that area. It’s because software gave me an opportunity to do that and I was like, I am going to do this. I had accrued about five years, six years and by the time I started this company there was about six or seven years worth of software experience, specifically working with a software team and I said, well that’s an entry, so let me take that. I don’t think I would have come into the field as a bio medical engineer and gotten the training and stuff like that to do it.

Dave Kruse: You never know where life will take you.

James Dias: Yeah exactly. It’s been a fun ride so far.

Dave Kruse: It’s interesting. All right, so tell us about Wellbe, you know what do you guys do probably in the kind of employees, money raised, just kind of some stats. I can remind you of some of the stuff too.

James Dias: Yeah, I mean we are a 30% strong company right now as you mentioned in Madison, Wisconsin, which is our home base. We’ve got a couple of people who work remotely, you know who are primarily in sales that are outside of the shop, but everybody else is here. We’ve had a couple of rounds of fund raising to sort of take us through different growth spurts. We’ve got about 50 customers around the country right now that are all actively using our capabilities and deriving value from it, and so you know we’ve – you know in this sort of business stages we have established the product market fit. You know now the question for us is what do we need to scale; that’s the next thing on our radar and our horizon, is how do we take what we’ve established and start scaling it up?

Dave Kruse: Yeah, it will be interesting to come back to that. First can you tell us about the product a little bit and what it does and how it helps providers, patients and…

James Dias: Yeah, the product I mean in its essence is really an opportunity for patients and providers to use our tools to partner on their health challenges that was the premise of the company. The what if? we had was you know if we gave people the right tools, could we make them more effective at managing their way through their health challenges, and so we constructed a platform that allows a patient and their family to work effectively with their doctors, nurses and other members of the care team through a health challenge, and the first set of challenges we choose were surgical challenges. So when patients are going through surgery, like a hip replacement or a knee replacement, there is a number of things that they need to do to prepare for that surgery and a number of things that they need to be mindful of and do when they are recovering for the surgeries so they have the best possible outcome. And so the platform is essentially optimized for that journey; taking that patient, the family and the providers, putting them together in a partnership and then sort of taking them through the process very systematically, very effectively as possible through that process and getting them to the other side.

Dave Kruse: So let’s say I am going to get a knee replacement at one of your clients, how does it work? Like does the client say, hey, download this app or you integrate it with your clients app and then like does it kind of walk me through like this is how you prepare for the knee replacement and this is what needs to be done afterwards and like kind of tell us what the journey…

James Dias: So the journey is ideally construed and presented to you as something that’s prescribed for your benefit, right. So your surgeon would say, Dave you’re going to get the surgery and you’re surgery is coming up in four weeks. Here I want you to follow your care plan and your care plan is now available on your Smartphone, so just follow the steps, and that’s what you would do. You would just sign on and then your each day or each week, certain number of steps would be provided to you, whether that’s things you needed to learn or thing you needed to measure about yourself or decision you needed to make or things you needed to report back to the team, any one of those types of different action would be presented to you at the precise moment in time on the journey. You would get them done in order for the team to ensure that you could get to that surgery as prepared and in some cases if you got complications they call it optimization is prepared and optimized for that surgery, so you have lowered the risk and improved your opportunity of your chances of having a very highly effective outcome. And then we do the same thing on the other side of the surgery. So you go through a period of recovery and we sort of keep an eye on you and give you a number of things that you need to keep and monitor and report back on.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. I could say [inaudible] another shoulder surgery a little while ago and you went in and the surgeon is like you got to do this and this and this and you got a kid on the way and like, holly – its overwhelming, if fact it was just like Wow! There is so much in here.

James Dias: Yeah, there is a lot there and you know many times its all presented to people at times when they are really not in a position to digest all of it and sort of understand all of it and so what we do is we take that big long list of to-do’s and break it up and give it to you at the specific times when they mater most during the journey. Like why talk about the fasting instructions three weeks ahead of time. Like why don’t we give it to you the night before you actually have to fast.

Dave Kruse: And can you – how can you customize the journey a little bit? So let’s say I am diabetic, I don’t know if that’s an issue you’re looking into, but can you have like a – can you customize it per person?

James Dias: Absolutely. The journeys are all what we call tailored, based on any number of variables that your clinical team believes is appropriate. So you’re going in for a anterior hip or a posterior hip replacement that defines the primary things that you need to do, but then if you’ve got some co morbidities like diabetes or you have some sleep issues or other issues, that journey that what we call the care path, the plan for you is essentially tailored to accommodate and account for those co-morbidities, yeah absolutely.

Dave Kruse: And does the patient download the Wellbe app or do you integrate through SDK or something with the provider’s app?

James Dias: Oh! That’s been an interesting challenge. The price doesn’t necessarily have the infrastructure in place today to support our app coming into them. I mean you would think that the EHR might be that opportunity, the electronic medical record or health record, it’s not the case. The answer is open systems as you would want them to be. So we designed the system largely to reflect the times you know; to be a mostly standalone system that could work as a compliment to the eHR. So we don’t rely on the eHR to run us, but we do share a number of different things like data and stuff like that back with the eHR. So the app is available to the patient consumer on any devise that they chose, so you could open it up on your Smartphone or tablet or a web based tool, it doesn’t matter. We have given you an app like experience running in the browser. That’s the approach we took, yeah.

Dave Kruse: Good all right. And so do you have any interesting case studies about – I mean it could be patients are happier, they recover faster or how do you – this is odd, this is very qualitative, but just…

James Dias: Well you know, we keep – as you might imagine you know we keep a very close eye on how patients use the Wellbe system and respond to it and by and large people have been very grateful to have all of this information and we call it guidance provided to them and in such a convenient fashion. I mean it gives all of us great joy to read the customer testimonials that come through, that have allowed people to deal with complex situations or the big tasks list that you talked about and make sense of it with their families and stuff. So I think all-in-all consumers have taken to this amazingly well. We couldn’t expect more you know, so the consumer side has been great. It’s been more challenging to work with the providers, because they are working in constrained environments and it’s not like they can just sort of redesigned the way they operate in hospitals to be able to bring these sort of tools in. It’s been more incremental I think inside of most institutions, as we try to work our way into the work flows and patterns of work in those hospitals and then on the consumer side. So consumers have adopted fabulously, the providers are lagging and they are on the spectrum too. There are people who are very progressive and have made great strides to accommodate these kinds of tools into their models of care delivery and then there are others who have sort of said, I love this stuff, but I am really struggling to maintain all the internal changes to get full benefit from it.

Dave Kruse: And how many consumers start with the app and then completely finish it if you had a guess or there’s a range or – I mean, because engagements are always a big issue, right. So I am going to keep them engaged and interested and yeah…

James Dias: So we – the people who start with the app almost always have 100% or close to 100% engagement going into surgery.

Dave Kruse: Well, that’s good, okay.

James Dias: It’s very, very strong. What we are still studying and trying to understand is what happens after surgery and the best explanation we have is different people have different definitions of when they believe the medical event or the episode is actually done, right, and so people tend to drop out of the program at different points in time. So you know you might wake up one morning and go alright, I’m done, I’m good you know, and that might be three weeks after the surgery because you’ve had a good recovery rate, you got a good mental outlook and whatever you defined as recovery is you have achieved it. On the other hand there are people that might take seven weeks or eight weeks or nine weeks. So that’s been an interesting discussion here with our clients about what is the end of the episode. Now from the billing point of view they have very specific definitions and you know Medicare has definitions etcetera, but the patient’s definition tends to be highly variable based on a number of different perceived facts about their recovery and things, perceived attitudes and things about their recovery.

Dave Kruse: And how long is a typical journey after the surgery? How many weeks like – it probably depends on the surgery?

James Dias: It depends on the kind of surgery. In a hip and knee surgery its usually somewhere about two weeks to four weeks to get patients ready and optimized for the surgery depending on what complications or anything that might be longer than that and then after the surgery we usually give them at least four to six weeks, at least that, but Medicare actually has made some of those things up to 90 days now, so it depends, yeah.

Dave Kruse: Okay, and I’m curious. I mean you’ve been in the health IT for a while compared to a lot of the companies who like I said you were pretty early on, which is interesting. You know what was it like when you first started at in 2008 and going out to providers really. We have no idea what we are talking about or were they receptive and then you know has it been easier? Has kind of health IT picked up or yeah, what’s it there?

James Dias: Yeah, it’s actually a good question. You know I think in the beginning there were some people that were obviously making the connection about what they were seeing in other sectors of the economy and going, why can’t we do this here? So there was at least a curiosity in place, but they didn’t quite – you know I don’t know if everybody necessarily understood the ramifications of digital healthcare and all those kind of things back then. It wasn’t clear to people how it would work. So we talked to lots and lots of people and only a few people – a lot of people got it. Most people didn’t believe they were in a position to do anything about it; they were not ready; it was a readiness question. Conceptually they were wrapping their head around it, but they were like, my institution is not ready. I don’t have a budget for this. I don’t know who would own this. Go and talk to my IT department and then one of the things we did, it was around 2008 and 2009, the federal government had already started taking over the agenda of the IT departments, because they said all of you guys have to put in an electronic medical record and all that stuff. We didn’t want to go get stuck in that queue, so we designed the product so that it didn’t depend on IT to put it in. So we were like no, we don’t want to go talk to an IT. Can’t we just talk to you and make this happen; it’s easy enough. We’ll do all the deployment. In fact all of the deployments that we’ve had around the country have not been sold to IT, have not been – IT has not been involved in the implementations and IT is not even involved in supporting the product today. So we made it largely a stand along propositions our business, clinical and operational buyers could make those decisions by themselves, yeah.

Dave Kruse: All right, we’re nearing kind of the end. I’ve got a few more questions, but – so where do you want to take Wellbe in the next five years. I know you mentioned that scaling is one of the biggest things you are thinking about and how you are going to do that effectively or is there anything else that you would kind of want to add to Wellbe in the next five years or…

James Dias: Yeah, I think the biggest learning for me was that the degree to which there is variability in healthcare. You know sometimes you walk into a room of five surgeons and the five surgeons will do things in five different ways, right. And so at a national scale you still have an enormous amount of variability and if there is no construct out there of sort of standardized anything – I mean people take your pulse in a standardized way, but you know mostly from that point on you know there’s so much room you know for a more personal approach by our providers and they define and determine their protocols on a highly localized level. And so what took us a while to wrap our heads around is that we have to develop this platform in a way that accounted for that variability. So what we did was instead of trying to jam a one size fits all across the country, we embraced the variability and reconstructed the platform as a Lego kit and I am using that you know metaphorically. So what we have done is we have taken a series of standardized capabilities and given each clinical team at each healthcare institution and within an institution you’ve got the cardio vascular department doing things differently than the orthopedic department, by necessity obviously and then doing things differently than you know nephrology. So what we said is we’ll come to the table with this Lego kit and it will have various functions that are highly tuned into the way consumers want to interact with you, but you can decide how you want to put them together based on the treatment plans and the surgical pathways and things that you want to do. And so we are excited about that prospect and now we’re starting to mobilize on that idea and that’s been an enormous investment for us to sort of go or that’s how we got to go to market. We are not going to be in sort of this monolithic app or a single type of thing. We’re more this kit that you have to work with, and that flexibility comes at a cost. It takes more ingenuity of the team to sort of work it through all the design scenarios and have to account for the different ways in which the Lego blocks can be used and so that’s a really fun and far reaching challenge.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. You probably didn’t expect that and that’s really at the beginning when you think all the hip surgery with all be pretty similar process information and you know it’s not there – which is interesting. It seems like they need some more protocols where it is.

James Dias: There is, but I think it is sort of the medical version of academic freedom, you know like doctors do need the license to do things, teams need the flexibility to do things. I think over time you are going to see a lot of that move towards standardization, because I think people are increasingly beginning to make the connection between that variability and the cost, right. The more variability you have the higher the costs are. So there are lots of people over the years, the Chief Medical Officers who have made that accounting and have said, look we can afford to have this kind of variability. What is the purpose of the variability and why do we need it? So I think it will narrow the band, but I am not sure it will ever go away. Even if it were to go away in a particular branch of medicine, a particular specialization, if we have to – Wellbe have to work in a hospital, we have got to work with many different departments. So we still have to have the Lego kit that gives the cardio vascular team what they want versus the orthopedic team what they want versus the neurosciences team what they want, right, so the Lego approach makes sense there.

Dave Kruse: Definitely, okay. And on a personal level, how do you deal with the fun and the stress of running Wellbe you know, because you travel quite a bit, you have people you are responsible for. I mean of course they all help you, but how do you get away? How do you distress? You know how do you not go insane and sorry may be you enjoy the whole thing?

James Dias: That’s a good question. I discovered yoga a few years ago. I was telling my wife that, boy! I wish I had discovered that a long time ago. That’s helped a little bit, but its – I am one of those people who have not – I don’t try to create any sort of wall between work and leisure, right. I find that there are things that I do, that I can be very productive at that feel leisurely to me. So it’s an odd way to say this, but if you give me a couple of quite hours to sit and work on a design, I would never call that work. I would call that like working on a pass time or something. So there is many a Saturday or many times on a vacation or 30,000 feet up in the air when I am flying or something where I can get completely engrossed in working on a problem and design and its very relaxing in some ways. It’s not a stress, so there’s all kinds of ways I have learned to accommodate that and I think your point that you brought up is a good one. I mean you got to have the right kind of team. I’m very fortunate to have a primary management team around me, three partners and then the team around them that are very good at what they do and we tend to know how to load balance as we go along.

Dave Kruse: Got you, okay. And so what makes you happy? Like does doing like two hours of concentrating on design make you happy or how do you find little bits of happiness in the day or you know…

James Dias: You know I was talking to a bio medical engineering group at UW a couple of year ago and I said there’s a certain high that comes from seeing an idea being realize, you know a release of some sort and it’s an addictive thing when you either write a story and somebody on the other side goes, I really like that story or you made a movie and people go, well that was terrific and I got hooked on that when I was a kid and I am telling you right now, it is still the driving force for me. So those little tit bits that come back from our patients that said, I really like this thing, is that’s where the happiness really comes from. There’s all the other things you know, you know I have two kids. I have a very loving family and all that, but you know in terms of the innate drivers from day-to-day, it’s all those kinds of things. It’s the collaborative act that produces something that brings joy to other people. Even at home we tend to operate that way, like Oh! We’re going to work on this as a project and when we get on to it and its like the end game is what gets us some return.

Dave Kruse: Interesting, okay. Well, I think that’s a pretty good way to end his podcast. That was great. So James I really appreciate your time and your experience and I love what you’re doing. So keep going at it and hopefully you guys get to keep going on and doing well.

James Dias: Thank you very much. Thank you for this opportunity.

Dave Kruse: Definitely. And thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Flyover Labs. As always I greatly appreciate it. We’ll see you next time. Bye.