This interview is with Chris Nundy. Chris is an innovation manager at the BBC, which of course is a major media company based in London. They’re actually the largest broadcaster in the world in terms of staff with 20,950 employees. They produce some wonderful shows.
Chris is in charge of sourcing and integrating new technology, like virtual reality and 360 video, into their shows. I was curious what Chris is especially interested in now and the process to take new tech and integrate it into the BBC’s processes.
Chris also has a wonderful production background which we talk about.
Here are some other things we talk about:
-What challenges did Chris and the BBC have with streaming live 360 video?
-How is a show put together from beginning to end?
-What type of show does Chris want to create?
-How does 360 video/VR change the story telling process?
David Kruse: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Flyover Labs and today we have Chris Nundy with us. And Chris is an Innovation Manager at the BBC, which as we all know is a major media company based in London and they are actually the largest broadcaster in the world, at least as far as their number of employees, they were at 20,000 employees and as we also know, they give us some wonderful shows.
So Chris is in charge of sourcing and integrating new tech like 360 Video into their shows and I was just curious what Chris is especially interested in now and kind of the process to take new tech and integrate it into the BBC’s processes. Chris also works on post productions in certain programs which we are going to talk about as well.
So Chris, thanks for joining us today.
Chris Nundy: Thank you for inviting me.
David Kruse: Definitely. And so before we jump into what you are doing now, can you give us a little overview on your background?
Chris Nundy: Sure, yeah. So I worked in the broadcast industry since the latter part of 90’s, about 1998, starting as a broadcast journalist in local radio in Chesterfield in Yorkshire before I moved to London in 2000 where I started working in a post production company here in London. And at that time I worked through post production to assistant editor and editor, working across the factual dram, music content.
I moved from post production into product in 2005, working up to a production manager, again working as a freelancer for a number of years, working on small feature films, some TV drams, some music videos before I joined IMG for a program content called Getting a TV, where I worked across that promotion of online content, before moving to join BT Sports, based here at BT tower here in London working on Championship and Live Sports before then, finally joining the BBC in 2009 in their multi platform division, having since worked in radio and before moving into their internal post and reversioning area and then finally moving into my current role in 2013. So almost 20 years, which is quite scary to admit on being – on doing this kind of thing.
David Kruse: Wow! Well that’s – yeah, I don’t know where to start with that background, it’s great. And so you have a lot of stuff and so what was one or two of your favorite things that you did, whether it’s a music video or a show or move that you worked on that was a really good experience or you learned a lot?
Chris Nundy: As a really kind of unimaginative answer, I think I’ve enjoyed, I’ve hated and loved all sorts of roles that I had at some point. Just everyone had offered me a new and interesting opportunity where I’ve learnt something new within that role. I’ve been really lucky across having so many roles, so my first role when I came to London and worked in post production, it taught me somewhat about technology, those basics I still rely on today of video and audio formats. What makes good televise technically, and all the way through to those kind of pinch myself moments of being on a studio set, Alpine Studios here or at Ealing Studios.
I’m working on sport and sport is a passion of mine and the opportunity to work on live football although I had to give up just about every weekend during that kind of period. The fact of being able to travel through the UK and outside of the UK to work as host broadcasters from that content and you know just the important and quick turnaround of live television. So there really are too many moments to choose really from that. And my current role, the fact that I spent most of my days looking at new technology, talking to people about technology, playing with technology, you know for a kind of technology geek home boy, it really is as good as it gets I think.
David Kruse: And you said that in there, one of your roles, you mentioned that you learned what makes good TV like technically.
Chris Nundy: Yeah.
David Kruse: What did you mean by that, or what did you learn with that?
Chris Nundy: Well, just kind of from the good basics standards you know of – from a technical aspect of framing, of making sure you know your audio is clean as possible, that your pitch is as crisp, that you are working with the highest possible resolution that you can. I mean I don’t have this built knowledge around you know forma television in terms of you know that you should pitch this idea and it will sell around the world. So it is more from a technical aspect. Just those basics and kind of the approach you take from a technical standpoint of just being quite methodical and working through a problem.
I was thought by early on about you know – if you think about the connectivity of equipment, in the broadcast chain, I’m approaching things in that order, that if something is linked into something else, then that is how you make it work and when you have a break in your chain, that is where the issue is going to rise from. So I kind apply that same kind of very loose methodology into kind of all of my work in that respect of how everything links together and then when I’m looking at new technologies now, of what part of that play are we removing and replacing with a new piece of technology and what benefit is that bringing or what issues could arise from that.
David Kruse: Interesting. And before we get too far I guess and you’ve kind of talked about it a little bit, but can you tell us about your current role and it sounds like you are looking for new tech and how to integrate it. Is that essentially it or do you want to just give us a brief overview?
Chris Nundy: Yeah, maybe in terms of the innovation part of my role, fundamentally is about the changing technology. What is coming out of the horizon or what is currently here, but not really being used very much and how we can either adapt or how we can take something out of the box and use that in our productions straight away or if there is something that we may need to modify in some way or look at use in a different way that maybe wasn’t the intended use. But in terms of, let me think about it, I’m sorry. Sorry, what was the question? What did I enjoy about my role?
David Kruse: Or what – kind of just describing your current role, you know what you do on a daily basis? What are you tasked with to make it happen?
Chris Nundy: Okay, so on a daily basis, so on a daily base I’ll be looking at – I’ll be looking to see what new technology is coming out of the horizon, equally what development there are within existing technologies. So this could be as straight forward as one of the camera manufactures are releasing a new camera and this will work. You know it either works really well with high frame rates or its fantastic in low light conditions or it’s just a small foam factor and then do we have a production that is currently in development or in production that we could use that camera technology with or whether it’s something in terms of – so the big kind of game changing thing that I’ve been looking out for the last few years and been able to play around for a little bit is around 306 and virtual reality.
So the great thing about that was something that was so completely different to our production teams. I’ve been able to take that technology and pitch to them as why they should do something with that camera technology and with that – just look at things differently of making some content.
And then equally can this be something of how can we use technology. So our broadband, so delivering content over IP for example, the front desk who are now being able to move away from creating physical tapes of physical disks that we send to commissioners to reviewing programs, we can just upload a link that is much quicker and easier, which reduces our carbon footprint. So it’s not exciting and sexy, but it’s something that then has a practical use in a way that we deliver our content, whether it be through the viewer at home or through to people within our program making process.
David Kruse: And how do you find this tech?
Chris Nundy: In terms of how do I find, how do I discover it? How do I come across it?
David Kruse: Exactly, exactly.
Chris Nundy: Well, trade shows, articles, events and most importantly of just talking to individuals or companies of all sizes, whether it’s you know someone may find my details and then get in touch with me about if they’ve got a new product or an idea or – but just having those conversations and you know one of the benefits of the BBC is that we have some amazing people that work in our R&D and technology areas and they are always looking to the future and figuring out what would be the next trend in that respect or they are creating technology themselves that could be used in programming making.
So it’s an incredibly fortunate position that we have all, you know we that resource available to us. But it’s just about the same as anything. You just – I talk to people like yourselves to have a similar interesting technology and you tell me about something that you heard about or seen and it kind of goes from there really. It’s just you are kind of – you are passing the baton to other people all the time.
David Kruse: I was going to say, that’s a wonderful role, that’s for sure. That would be – it must be fun most days, maybe not every day. But I was curious, before – you know I have some more questions about your kind of current role, but to get more into your world, could you – is it possible to kind of walk us through, because we are not media or TV experts here. Walk us through how a show is created from beginning to end. I mean if you have an example of a show you have worked on that will probably be better. I mean you talked about production and post production and kind of just how that whole process works, it would be interesting.
Chris Nundy: Okay, well I’ll give it a go in sort of general terms, so within our former entertainment area here. So we have a development team in the same way they will – it sits around and – not – no one sits around. They will work to research you know their own areas within technology or their own program ideas and look at existing formats for what they feel my position is within that. So there is a team that will then put together a pitch, that will then will pitched to the commissioners. If the commissioners like it, then a pilot will be made.
David Kruse: What’s part of the pitch? You know how do they have to like this – okay I can only think of screen shorts, but can they – do they have to have like a little video made or more just like an idea on paper or…
Chris Nundy: Yeah, I mean it kind of depends, but as with anything, if you are trying to sell our idea to somebody, our concept, then having visual support of that, so that people don’t you know – you are not just putting up what used to be movie boards or maybe photographs or drawings or whatever.
So for a game show, what the team – the development team might then do is actually build a virtual environment within that, so it’s quite crude. But it certainly gives the impression of what the studio would look like, where props might be, where the contestants would be and then from that you can then add everything else that you would normally would, so music, effects, you can put a voice over as your host and actually play that back. It may only be a few minutes long, but then you can actually – you know you can get that sense of environment. You can move throughout the set in that virtual and 3D world. So that then helps to sell your idea a little bit further.
David Kruse: Got you, okay, all right cool. So you have the pitch and then you could screen write it. Do you produce a pilot?
Chris Nundy: Yeah, exactly, and then that’s where they ask the broadcaster pilot or it would just goes through the commissioners again and see if they are happy with the end result. Obviously we have an amazing success rate.
David Kruse: Of course.
Chris Nundy: You might want to cut that bit out, about BBC. So providing. So the pitch, if your pilot is successful then you have your – you will be put into that specific slot. So a lot of the programs that we aim to fill for those time slots, you have a Saturday evening slot where we have a show whose likely about it remains some of our most successful in-house productions. And then you hope for that 12 week, there you’ve got a returning strength and obviously within that, even though the main show, so then moving into a live show such as strictly come dancing and that respect; Dancing with the starts as its know in the U.S.
The main show is that live kind of 60 minutes on a Saturday evening, but of course there’s BT packages that go into that, that then just help to not just make it a show about dancing. It has a story and you learn more about the contestants and their personalities and their Sunday lives and things. So this, all of those levels of yes commissioning process, through to filming content and what cameras you were using and then editing that, your sound mixing and dubbing to make sure that you are all of those, the best there could be, you are calibrating the pitch to make sure that everything looks as great and shiny if you are looking to shin a sparkle, which you are on a Saturday show, all the way through to you know the delivery chain and just making sure that your technical specks have been met in terms of the delivery for a broadcast.
David Kruse: And the delivery chain, is that – what do you mean by that?
Chris Nundy: We are just making sure, so every broadcast, so certainly by areas in the U.K. we recently moved away far away take and into fall based delivery. So that has its technical standards to make sure that everything is balanced, so your images are typed and safe on the screens when you watch it at home and you can see a third and credits and things like that clearly, making sure that the oldie here is a way that remains clean and crisp and everybody can hear and that your colors and your whites are not too white and the blacks are not too black so you lose detail.
And then you know PSG and your program isn’t – your program doesn’t have an over bundled effect. So just all of those technical requirements and that is to do a team, in various comers of people that are making sure that programs. Once all that creative effort has gone into something, and making sure that technically as much care and attention has gone into building that programs and creating efforts to get the best part of your piece of work.
David Kruse: Yeah, there is a lot to creating a nice show and do you have an idea of how many people work on, like one of the dancing shows, how many people are on the team? Do you have a guess?
Chris Nundy: It would easily be, oh goodness! – the kind of production management team has roughly, because the biggest number is always going to be in the crew, on the technical side. So if you are going to you know do a show you are probably looking at least cameras if not more and then you’ve got your staff in the gallery. So you are easy looking at like you know 30 to 50 people, just kind of covering a live show from lighting to sound to camera to studio management, to runners, to props, makeup, hair, chorography, the list really does go on. So yeah, I say 50, but it will be more like 50 to 70.
David Kruse: Wow! That’s – you don’t expect that. And that doesn’t include all the admin. Like somebody actually has to, somebody has to sell commercials too and all that part of it too, which is another whole aspect.
Chris Nundy: Yeah exactly, yeah there is a lot of – there is a lot of people, a lot of time, a lot of effort that goes into making you know 60 minutes of television?
David Kruse: Makes sense, okay. So lets…
Chris Nundy: That’s only a small fraction, as to feature films obviously.
David Kruse: Oh that’s…
Chris Nundy: Sometimes the credit list is almost as long as the film.
David Kruse: That’s true, that’s true. So let’s talk about some of the current things you are working on. Do you have particular projects you are working on now, around new innovation, new technology?
Chris Nundy: Yeah, there is a couple of things, a couple of things I can’t talk about at the moment in development, because of things that we recently delivered. So as I touched on earlier one of the big things for me since 2014 really has been looking at 360 and VR, so that’s certainly been some of the biggest projects and most interesting projects that I have been working on in the last couple of years.
I would really like to actually create a full true VR experience, creating that virtual world and giving people the interactivity of being able to move through that environment. As of yet I haven’t got the right idea, platform or funding, but I keep moving forward to that, but we’ve had tremendous success with 360’s video.
So the first thing we did again working with Strictly, because I worked across, entertainment, music and events, you know Strictly is one of our big programs we’ve know. We made a 360 from the heart of the dance floor, a view that money can’t buy or you know you can’t get a ticket and that position to be in the center of the dance floor during one the routines, and the fact that we did that with strictly.
So this was back in 2015, which was still relatively new in terms of the general public’s understanding and appreciation of 360 content. So it’s a quite a big deal that we moved forward with something like that for Strictly Come Dancing in that way and we had a fantastic reaction, fantastic reaction with – it completely blew the minds of our production team who work on the show on a weekly basis to then see the output, but even more so the general public. It was something that was so unexpected for them, because you have this huge fun base of people that you need with Strictly, but may not necessarily be as technologically advanced that they would normally access the show in that way.
So the fact that we were giving them something and even just watching the content back in a magic window mode on my phone, the fact that as they moved that around, they were getting a different perspective of what was happening with the routine. It was just absolutely mind-blowing.
So that’s been certainly the most fun on some of the projects that we’ve had and then since then we’ve worked on featuring the color with our events team, so we gave everybody the opportunity to sit in the position of Her Majesty, The Queen as she took the parade and they – I think the colors for this year and again, it’s a position that you or I would not normally be able to you know – we could put a standard camera in there and you can get some fantastic coverage.
But the fact that you could choose to look where you what to look, and actually get that sense of presence, particularly when you then go into wearing a headset mode and the biggest project around that, so everything is kind of 360 for me at moment. I’m really excited as we’re trying to move forward. So we live streamed the New Years Eve fireworks from London this year. So we took three camera rigs, placed one next to the London Eye here, which is kind of the centerpiece of our fireworks display, put the camera completely in harm’s way.
David Kruse: Good.
Chris Nundy: So absolutely amazing and terrifying footage from that position as the fireworks were within you know meters of this camera position. And there was, it was a very optimistic project really. The fact that you know I was working with the live events team; they are one of the best in terms of providing live coverage for our content. But the fact that we took some things, you would think that would be relatively straightforward you know, you know a small form, camera format.
You know you use three of those in 360 and get the calibration of those and then live mixing that to live stream was a bigger challenge than I fully appreciated at the beginning of the product, but I am so happy that we pushed through and we’ve learnt so much in terms of you know, there will be something that we may approach differently.
One of the biggest surprises is where the supporting content in that, in this process. So for our main broadcast, we are still bound by delivering content by HD. With live streaming now we are already moving beyond HD. But all of the infrastructure that we’re required to use from remote camera positions, we are still bound within that technology for broadcast. So we had to find ways of working around a HD infrastructure, but needing to go up to 4T or 4K or whatever to actually deliver the best that you can get by scratching your image.
So again, it was a complete surprise you know to people viewing. They weren’t really sure about what they were going to be getting. We had a hope that it would work out very well, but as with most things, you can’t really tell and with innovation projects that’s what makes my role really exciting on a day to day basis, that you do want to try to use technology in a new way in a different way that continue to keep pushing things forward and this certainly felt like it. It ticked those boxes in that respect and across the piece, over six million views in a week kind of across the platform from a social site. So it really, yeah, it’s kind of picked up and done incredibly well, as we are just yeah, through with that.
David Kruse: Well, you guys have definitely been trail blazers I think in many regards. You know like the New York Times are doing some stuff too, but you guys have been doing it for a while and especially the live. I was curious, it seems like that’s a lot of bandwidth or that’s a lot of video you have to push through live. Did you guys develop your own software? I know there is some software out there, but how – yeah, did you develop internally? Did you work on external partners or a little of both or…
Chris Nundy: We, well in terms of the 360 production we contracted some 360 specialists in the field basically that have been working in live content for years. They themselves had not done anything to this scale and ambition. But they have worked with Google for the original kind of Google Street Map stuff in the UK and had captured a lot of content with them in entering 360, and they also come from a TV and combat ground as well, so they are used to struggling both worlds in terms of that; the infrastructure required to create content and network here across in that way, through to understanding the requirements of 360.
So, it’s obvious moments in time for you to say you know that we, the BBC is going to be incredibly lucky that we did 360 in VR. We are managing to create quite a lot of concept whilst we work through and try to understand what the public’s appetite is for that format and how it can support our programs of it could be a stand along product that’s ongoing. But we still do need that requirement from the specialists within the fields that could come in and advice and help and actually help us to produce that content.
And we are also fortunate in terms of as I say we are working with the live events team, who have decades of experience of working with these environments, so we are able to use, sort of tap into that knowledge of our technical manager there and put them in working with them and with our third party.
External, the 360 production company, and then me somewhere in the middle kind of getting in the way and just saying it will be great if we can do this and can we just put a camera in this position and that sort of stuff. So yeah, I mean it was definitely a – it was across BBC, across industry project really. I’m working with the social sties about you know where they are at with live streaming at the moment, kind of using their expertise and knowledge of making sure that the project is kind of delivered as wanted to.
David Kruse: And what type of headset do people watch this on?
Chris Nundy: Well, because through a – so it’s a project and we were live streaming with YouTube, so at the moment there are limitations in terms of headsets. I think you can only live stream, yeah with cardboard but in android. I‘m not sure if OS, IoS is currently supported. That could be one that may have changed. But yeah, so currently it was a live stream; there are limitations. The headset was also available on demand and it was pushed through to the oculus headset, which I think figured that while I’m not there. But in terms of you know if you can access YouTube on any device, particularly the On-Demand asset, then you can watch the project.
David Kruse: I know you mentioned that you wanted to do a complete show using VR instead of just 360 video. Can you explain the difference between kind of the experience in your mind between VR and 360 video?
Chris Nundy: Well obviously, with VR you are kind of limited by your imagination or much with your environment. We are trying to recreate and where you want to take people on the journey in that respect. 360 video is fantastic, because providing you to think through what you are trying to deliver and place your cameras in suitable positions, like to kind of justify why you are shooting in 360 as opposed to you know 180 or just in kind of a standard 16 x 9 frames. But you are then bound by the limitations of what you are actually filming.
So if it’s you know – so I think 360 offers a great experience to people, but I think it’s a truly immersive experience in every sense, not just the fact that I can put a headset on and view a 360 video, but if the camera is static then I am static. If the camera is moving as curated experience, then I’m moving in that direction.
I can look around in my 360, but I don’t necessary have full maneuverability and full interaction with that piece. Whereas within in the true VR sense if you can build that environment and you can give depending on how much processing power and everything else that you’ve got, but you can then start to put in that gamification, which is why I think it’s why it’s fantastic, the playstation headset device and it sounds as you know that can only do good things in the world of reality of just connecting and giving people that kind of content.
So that is why I’ve been in terms when I dare of what I’d like to create in a true VR sense. I’d say I’ve not quiet found the right idea for what I could be as yet, but in terms of the BBC, so we create in content with the space full, which then put people onto or into space and your able to, you know you could do a space walk and you could do some maintenance and then you know there’s sort of a little bit of reality in that experience within that, as well as some gamification and yeah, it’s a fantastic piece really. So yeah, that would be my, well something I’d definitely like to explore further.
David Kruse: Got you. And I mean, how do you think that VR would change kind of the story telling. It seems like you said that a lot of shows probably would not be appropriate necessarily and I suppose that’s what your searching for, what is the best story to tell, whether it’s a game show or something like that. It’s a little more immersive experience. Yeah, have you thought more about how it’s going to change the story telling?
Chris Nundy: Well, in terms of if we’re talking about VR and if we’re talking about 360, in terms of the story telling just immediately the framing or the lack of framing that you have with 360 has already changed everything in terms of – so if we’re comping an event where it would normally, you know we would spend a lot of time disguising or hiding you know crew and equipment and everything, but it’s obviously you just cannot when you got things or you can but you have to be – you know you need time and money and it can be expensive if your then turning things into props and so for a live event you don’t have to turn around time for that.
In terms of Virtual Reality, absolutely. I think one of the biggest issues or challenges really, one of the biggest challenges that we have is other than relying on social sites and in the VR sense it’s not really going to work. Like how do you get reach on that kind of communal experience with virtual reality that we have been doing for decades in terms of focal point if it’s the television or the radio. Within that you can enjoy on mass and of course there are developments where you can then move into more social settings within your virtual reality world. So that would be interesting to see how that played out as well.
But yeah, I mean a game show could absolutely work in that environment or you know something that you need to complete task within a set period of time. But yeah, I mean really the opportunities are almost endless in terms of – but it’s just really feeding that back through so it becomes relevant rather that it just being a simple, you know just a game that you are playing, you know how does that then tie back essentially that then you’re competing in kind of real time, etcetera.
But there is just all of these fantastic challenges in terms of you know things have moved on soo much in the two years or the two and a half years that I’ve been looking at this, pretty much every VR experience when I first looked at it, peeked through my first cardboard or whatever, which was just Oh! I’m on another roller coaster and now you know there’s just already people are learning to tell more intricate and interesting stories and really kind of tapping to roll if that means for good and bad in terms of you know the experiences that you can have being kind of like to feel virtual, true isolation in small rooms and cells and things like that through to well being on a roller coaster.
David Kruse: And so we’re almost done with the podcast here. I’ve got one or two more questions. One is, do you think in five or ten years people will spend a lot more time in 360 and VR and I think they probably will, but then I imagine they’d still watch regular TV too. What’s kind of your thought?
Chris Nundy: Well, I hope so. I hope people are still watching the television. I mean it is still the corner piece of the modern living room in that respect and it is where you know families come together. I mean we’re already seeing such a switch away from that traditional schedule broadcast of things from television and radio, that kind of truly curated experience. The on-demand channels are just kind of changing the way that we consume our media that our younger audiences consume their media, everything is becoming more mobile.
I think there is potentially a place for VR and 360 within that. I think the whole, you know it would be interesting to see where Microsoft go and with the HoloLens. That’s another area that I’d really like to make some content and do more with it. I’ll do anything with them, because that then, you know they are kind of mixed realities of the fact that you know you can literally walk into a room with blank walls and then decorate it, however you need it and you want a 60 inch screen, then brilliant, it has a virtual 60 inch screen and you can get your content on that. So that’s quite interesting.
I think we’re probably on a mass level, potentially going to move closer to something like that, you know of the Star trek Holodeck, but I think they all play their part and sending the journey to where we will end up and…
Yes, I mean at the moment if you put on a headset and Netflix is available on the DVR which is great, but very conscious that your wearing a headset and watching and then you – well then still you have those moments where you kind of, you know react to the film and then you remember that you know there’s other three people there in your living room and not having that same experience and that’s kind of a the big difference I think in terms of that kind of immersive experience when it’s not within that shared social environment.
But that will be limiting in that respect in terms of – you know and at the moment, you know I think content you can make with sports and your programming is great. You know you can either watch a piece of content afterwards or you could, if you’ve got a narrative piece that’s well now, I’ve consumed this piece of media or this bit of story or everything you can watch by in 360 and then come back out and then go back into the normal broadcast channel.
But who knows, I mean technology is moving soo quickly now and I am of the age where you know I can remember when a phone was just a phone.
David Kruse: Me too.
Chris Nundy: And it just had a little green screen and you were just thrilled that you could either create your own ringtone with it or whatever that sounded a bit like it and something and now you know so who can truly predict where in five to ten years what technology we’ll be relying on to our media. But as we know, network infrastructure you know is certainly mobile and will just be – it will play such a huge part in that and the fact they will be able to access pretty much everything really quickly. 5G is here later this year, so I hear and so you know it’s just that level of power. Terrifying!
David Kruse: But that will be awesome when it’s here, right and you can just put on the HoloLens and it will just talk to your phone in your pocket and it will give an amazing experience. That’s a long ways away, but well maybe not long, but maybe five to ten years. It’s coming. So anyways…
Chris Nundy: Absolutely.
David Kruse: Yeah, so I think that just about does it and that’s a good way to end I think the podcast and I show your vision for what could happen and so Chris, definitely I appreciate your time and your thoughts and you’ve got some great media experience. So I definitely learned a little bit of how a show is created and how it all works and so thanks for coming on this show.
Chris Nundy: Well, thanks. Yeah, thanks for your time. It was nice talking to you.
David Kruse: Definitely, and yeah I am super interested to hear about 360 video and I definitely experienced some of it, but hope to do more and more in the future. So keep doing what you’re doing and you can change the media world a little bit.
Chris Nundy: I am doing my best. Thank you.
David Kruse: And thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Flyover Labs. As always, I greatly appreciate it and we’ll see you next time. Bye everyone. Bye Chris.
Chris Nundy: Bye-bye.