E48: Pam Grossman, Director of Visual Trends at Getty Images – Interview

August 11, 2016


This interview with Pam Grossman is all about visual trends. How Pam sees and thinks about the world from a historical and visual perspective is powerful. Pam is the director of visual trends at Getty Images. She helps to identify cultural and aesthetic shifts and trends.

Pam has an amazing background around culture and art and understanding where people’s tastes will head. I was quite curious how she does this. And Pam was nice enough to come on the show.

Here are some other things we talk about:

-How do you identify visual trends?
-What’s an example of a trend you predicted that you’ve seen take off? How did you predict it?
-What’s one of your favorite places to go to in NYC to get inspired?
-How do you see the world differently than others?

Pam also mentions Getty Image’s 2016 Creative In Focus, a visual trend report that’s worth checking out.


David Kruse: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Flyover Labs. This is Dave Kruse from Madison, Wisconsin and today we are lucky enough to have Pam Grossman with us. And Pam is a Director of Visual Trends at Getty Images. That means she helps to identify cultural and aesthetic shifts and trends. So does that mean she can see the future, well maybe, and I hope to find out. So to do this, Pam has an amazing background around culture and art and understanding where people’s tastes will head. So I’m quite curious how she does all this and Pam was nice enough to come on the show. So Pam, thanks for joining us today.

Pam Grossman: Thank you so much for having me David. Its, great to be here.

David Kruse: Yes, we definitely appreciate it. So it would be good to know you a little bit better. Can you give us a little bit about your background and how you eventually got to Getty Images and how you got started in visual trends and looking at where things are ahead.

Pam Grossman: Sure thing. Well every since I was a kid I loved studying symbols and art and really studying the reason which people tell stories, both written stories, as well as stories through visual. I was a kid who was lucky enough to be taken to art museums all the time by my parents who are both artists themselves and so it was really in my bloodstream from a very, very young age. And then as I got older and I went to college at NYU, I wanted to study the ways in which people communicate through images, and NYU at the time, this is the late 90s early 2000, they didn’t have the exact sort of degree that I was looking for. So I kind of cobbled it together by majoring in cultural anthropology and then minoring in art history, religious studies interestingly enough, because I love mythology and the symbolism of mythology and creative writing. And through that I was really able to study the ways in which we communicate through images and the ways in which art changes consciousness, which I think is a real through line, in all the projects that I do, both at Getty and outside of Getty.

David Kruse: Interesting. All right. Can you explain on how art changes the consciousness? What do you mean by that?

Pam Grossman: Sure. So the brain process images, thousands of times more quickly than it processes words. And images make us have an immediate emotional reaction. That’s true whether we are looking at something online, whether it’s watching a file, whether it’s seeing a poster or a work of fine art and I love that immediacy and I love the way our brains are really hard wired to communicate in imagery. Images are the universe language and because of that I think it’s really important to study how they work and which images are the most effective in communicating and in transforming people’s perceptives and consciousness.

David Kruse: Interesting. And so how did you put together in college, in your own program. How did you know what you are going to do afterwards? I mean it’s such an interesting kind of multi disciplinary projects that you put together. How did you cobble all that together and then what did you do right after college?

Pam Grossman: I would love to tell you that I had an amazing plan, but in fact I was really just concerned with studying something that really set my soul and by brain and this is what I have been fascinated by. So it was a real leap of faith to just take all these different courses and trust that it was going to lead me to the right destination or at least the next on the path as it were. I am also a real anomaly and that the first job I got out of college was at Getty Images. I’m in my mid-30’s now and most of my friends who are my age or around my age have had several different employers and I have had just the one. Now that said, I’ve had a lot of different jobs at Getty Images and one of the main reasons I stayed here so long, going on 13 years now is because my career has been able to evolve and stretch and challenge me and because it still is very meaningful to me. But that said, the first role I had at Getty Images was actually as a sales assistant and I have to confess, at that time I didn’t even know what the stock of the industry was. I just knew that I wanted to work for a place that had to do with the art somehow and culture and it was really important to me that I was able to wear jeans to work, that I didn’t have to be overly buttoned up and I could be myself and embrace my own kind of personal style and voice and that’s really what Getty Images does. No matter what department somebody is in, chances are they have some really interesting fascinations outside of work and a lot of people who work here do so because they love talk or they love art, and so it was a really, really great place to work, just in terms of the environment and the people I get to connect with. With that said, I started as an entry level sales position and it was a really get place to get my feet wet in the industry, to not only learn about it, but to lean about what our customers were asking for, what kind of images they were choosing to tell their own visual stories. And then fast-forward about a year and half and a job opened up in the creative department, which is the department that actually works with the photographers and videographers to make the content, and this job is called the Creative Researcher, and it was in a nutsheel studying visual culture and studying what our customers were looking for and then working with the creative department to get those images made. And I heard about the role, I just couldn’t believe my luck, because it came to me, such a confluence of all of the things that I’ve always gravitated towards and studied both formally at college, but also in my spare time; it’s just what I loved to think about. So it was just really, really good fortune. And then since I’ve been in that Creative Research department, my role has complexified and growing over the years.

David Kruse: Interesting and I want to keep diving into that, but I was curious and this could be while you’re at Getty or in college. Is there – has there been any books or anything like that that’s really impacted you that you think everyone should read.

Pam Grossman: Two come to mind in the context of this conversation and the first is very kind of Undergrad 101 but I still think that everybody should give it a read and that’s John Berger the Ways of Seeing. You might be familiar with it. It’s actually based on documentary series that he did for the BBC. Gosh! I can’t remember if it was in the 70s or in early 80s; I want to say the 70s and he really both for this documentary series and also in the book, he really talks about the ways in which images impact our perception. And also he talks a lot about context. That it’s not just about what the images, but what matters is who is using the image? How is the image being used? And it really just had a huge impact on me and the ways in which I think about visually culture. So that’s the first book. And the second book, funnily enough is also a book version of a documentary series which is a book called The Power of Myth, which is by Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers and it was kind of the transcript version of a series of interviews that Bill Moyers did with Joseph Campbell and for those of you who aren’t familiarly with Joseph Campbell, he was one of the first what we call mythologist where people who study comparative mythology. And he was one of the earliest people to really crystallize the idea that myth is universal. That it doesn’t matter what religion you are or what culture do you grew up in, that stories are universal and there are a lot of scenes that are universal you know trans-culturally and pan-culturally. And so that was really interesting to me; this idea that it doesn’t matter what name you give to your characters. It doesn’t matter what costumers, or masks they were. What matters are these universal scenes and universal stories that show up over and over and over again and that really appeals to me, this idea of universality, this idea that you know as excuse me as [inaudible] that there might be something called the collective unconscious. In other words that there is this universal pool of images that as soon as you connect us all and really I think are the founder of the first humanity.

David Kruse: Interesting, yes. I like how you strung together Joseph Campbell and Carl Young; that was good. I think we are going to need another interview just on those two. That was good.

Pam Grossman: Oh my God, I talk about them all day. They’ve had a huge impact on my life and how I look at the world and not just art and visual culture, but just the ways in which I interact with other people. You know it’s very, I think very heart opening when you focus on the similarities between different people rather than the differences.

David Kruse: And kind of like you said, that collective unconscious is that underlying energy and just a theme throughout the many cultures and people and well, most things, which makes life interesting. All right, so yes that was good. We’ll get into Getty, but I have one last question. So you do think when you walk around the city, like walk around Manhattan like do you look at the world, you think a little differently than others or how do you look at it. Are you maybe picking up more visual cues or images or yes. Do you think you see the world differently?

Pam Grossman: It’s really hard for me to say this, because I only know the way that I see the world.

David Kruse: Fair enough, fair enough.

Pam Grossman: But what I will say is I definitely have my antenna up as I’m walking around and I definitely pay attention to not just the literal images that I see, but also the message those images are trying to communicate. And I’m very, very interested in symbolism. So where somewhere might look at a model on a billboard and they might just think she is selling a pair of shoes let’s say. To be depending on how she is dressed, how she’s standing, what the energy is behind the image. I think of her as arty type, you know as a symbol for some kind of characteristic or icon that is timeless, that is universal. So someone might just see a model. I might see here as a warrior or a goddess or a mother archetype and a lot of that again comes from Joseph Campbell and Carl Young’s influence on me.

David Kruse: Interesting, I like that, okay. So let’s talk a little about Getty Images now and you talked a little bit about your role, but what do you do now exactly. I don’t think it adds quite to what you do right now.

Pam Grossman: Sure. So I’m the Director of Visual Trends for North America for Getty Images and what that means is, I help head up a team called the Creative Research team and the Creative Research teams job is to both study our internal data, so that’s everything from our search term and search metrics as they rise and fall to our sales data, literally seeing which images are performing well and then analyzing why they might be. It also studies the world around us, because everybody on my team is half twist reading a ton of blogs and magazines and knowing what the most discussed articles are on social or what are the trending visuals happening in top culture. All of that swells into the secret pass so to speak and of course a lot of it is speaking with our customers, both one-on-one and when we are presenting on visual trends at conferences and events and the like, because we get of course a really great read on the pulse of visual culture when we are tracking what these customers are working on and what they are going to be looking for from us. So once we have plan, we then are ready to go see with our creative team which are global. We have art directors and photo editors all around the world and we work with them to help plan photo shoots and all of them have relationship with photographs and videographers globally, who then create those images and I often say that if my team is doing our job well, we will have the images on GettyImages.com before our customers even know that they need them. So we do that both by running brainstorms for the Creative Department. We write a lot of brief which go up on the contributor site, which all of our contributors have access to and we run workshops for our contributors, so there is a whole bunch of different ways that we are actually communicating out the trends to our contributors and then having them create images around those trends. And then the last piece I would say is that my team is often tasked with identifying trends and communicating what those trends are going to be. So we often to speak to our customers and present on trends at various workshops. We also put out a book every year, Creative In Focus, where we project the six biggest trends we think are going to have the most impact on the world in the coming year. And it’s been really fruitful to be able to share our research with our customers and not just our contributors, because they need to engage and it’s a really rich creative dialog with our customs and be more creative partners to them than simply just vendors you know.

David Kruse: Interesting. And do you think over the years you’ve gotten better at identifying trends or is it an iterate processes or just depends up on the year, how good you do?

Pam Grossman: That’s a really good question. I mean I’m happy to say that my team is made up of some really incredible brains. So there haven’t been too many instances where we’ve closely missed the mark, I’m happy to say. There is certain times when we were a little bit too early, and that certainly has happened to me personally a couple of times. But then I would get to feel small a couple of years later when the trends finally hit and try not to grow too much, that’s my gosh. But yes, I remember for example, you know a number of years ago I was reading a lot of articles about robotics and how robots were going to be the new frontier not only in kind of the more high-end science and text spheres, but also in the consumer sphere. And so I was really excited about this. I had all this great statistics. I had all these articles to say some search staff and you know I tried to get our teams to do a whole bunch of robot shoot, and this was good gosh, maybe six or seven, maybe even eight years ago and we did a bunch of those shoots and now they are starting to perform well, because I think only now are people really talking about robots coming into hospitals or robots coming into the household and often they are not anthropomorphic. In other words they don’t often look like people, which is what we thought it would be. Now robots, sometimes they might look anthropomorphic, but sometimes they look like little stuffed animals, like PARO the comfort seal or they look like Maroona you know. So that’s something that’s been an evolving trend and I think, I’m not sorry that we called it a little bit early, but definitely its only now that we are seeing that wave kind of flash.

David Kruse: Interesting and is there another trend that you predicted right on, and how – can you kind of walk us through how you predicted that trend. I mean it might be hard to piece by piece, but what did you all kind of synthesize, what blogs and how do you kind of come with the decisions like, oh! This is going to be it. So do you score stuff? Yes, what’s your process?

Pam Grossman: The one that comes to mind immediately is a trend that’s still going very, very strong and something that’s very close to my heart and that’s this trend that we are seeing, that stared as kind of a female empowerment trend. This is something that I’m really proud to say we were very ahead of the curve on, and so much so that a couple of years ago when we stated tracking it, we decided to put our money where our mouth is so to speak and form an entire partnership and creative imagery collection around it and what I’m referring to you is a partnership and a collection called the lean in collection, which we did in collaboration with Joseph Campbell nonprofit leanin.org and this is a collection of images that break gender stereo type and at its core features, images of woman who are leaders and who are strong and authentic and vital and not kind of that cliché, objectified, wafey, sex object, that we all have grown up with. And that has been one of the most meaningful and I would say successful projects that I’ve gotten to work on in my career and it’s still going really strong. But when we launched the collection two years ago, we were able to rationalize it for a whole number of reasons. First and foremost, you know what we were observing. We were starting to see conversations evolving online; we were starting to see feminism, have this both ways double up and people actually the word feminist again, which you know as we know fell very out of fashion over the last couple of decades, which is now being reclaimed by a whole generation of younger women; and we started seeing things like our top selling images of woman evolving. And this is at this point kind of going down in Getty Lure. I’ve told this story a number of times, but for the sake of your listeners I’ll tell it once more. Okay, so our top selling image of a woman, in 2007 was an image of a woman who was like perfect, and modally looking. She is just kind of lying around in a sheet, presumably naked under the sheets. She doesn’t have very much to do with her day, she is just very, very passive and get eyed and kind of perfect in that very cliché, objectified female way. And then five years later in the year 2012 we noticed that our top selling image of a woman was this image of a woman on a train and she was still an attractive woman, but in a much more authentic and relatable way. She, now was wearing clothing, which was thrilling as you can imaging and the fact that she was on a train really talk about visual metaphors, talk about symbols, it really suggests that she had forward momentum in our life. She is going on a journey, she is not passive, she is activity, she has dynamism and energy in the image and that’s just a five years change that we were tacking this really monumental evolution. So that was certainly a big piece of the puzzle. And then we also just started to pick up on things like the rise in female comedians. You now everybody from Amy Schumer to Broad city women, and the way in which this appetite for an reverent, bold woman who knows her own mind and who doesn’t take a back seat to anyone was really needing the consumer space and consumer demand. So that’s just a couple of examples of our thinking and I’m really happy to say we were right on the money with that and since we launched the lean in collection and has been doing a lot of imagery around female empowerment, we’ve extended that trend and added further complexity to it. So it evolves the next year into a trend we call Gender Blend, in which we really acknowledge that this isn’t just about women and girls. It’s also about the way in which we are letting go of the idea that gender is binary and that women only have to look like this and act like this and men always have to look like this and act like this. That in fact there is much more blur and bleed between the two and that the breakdown of these calcified cultural assumptions about gender is ultimately this really positive thing and I think it’s one of the reasons we are seeing lots of advertising where little girls are playing sports and boys are more comfortable being sensitive and affectionate and I think it’s also leading up into this current shift where we are seeing a rising visibility of the transgender population, where it feels like the world and the marketplace frankly is getting ready for this and in any case this is all ready, ready for this, for this idea that gender is complex and that it’s all okay.

David Kruse: Interesting. I mean that’s a good story. So do you, you know kind of predict, you have like general subjects like lean in. Well, what about like colors and maybe textures, do you also make predictions kind of in those spaces as well or is it more like general kind of concepts?

Pam Grossman: It is also aesthetic trends for sure and sometimes its texture, so you know the last couple of years funnily enough wood grain texture has been very, very popular and I’m sure it’s no surprised to anyone who is listening who is tracking you know the lives of the very artisanal heritage, farm fresh kind of aesthetic that’s been soo popularly woody. I think is a real answer to the digital world that we’re living in more. It’s like the more digital we become, the more we long for the tactile, the home made, the sensory. So suddenly we track things like that. That’s to track photography trends overall. So as you can imagine, now that everybody has a camera attached to their phone, that snapshotty, instagrammy, mobile phone kind of look has really seeped into mass commercial photography. So certainly we still do lots of photo shoots that are highly produced and very polished and beautiful, but we have many, many, many more images that we are creating which have a little bit of glitch to them or imperfection or feel more like a caught candid moment that you might see coming through your social media stream than in compared to that slick advertising of years past. So that’s been a real shift. So absolutely aesthetic trends have a huge impact on the way we work and images we create.

David Kruse: Interesting. And how do you know if a trend is already mainstream or if its – you know like you said you want to be – you don’t want to be too far ahead, but you don’t want to be too late. So how do you kind of gauge like if this linear movement was you know were you too late to the party or – obviously you weren’t with that one. But with other trends how do you know if your ahead of the trend or not or if you are just catching up?

Pam Grossman: I mean, you know fortunately for me in my position, how we know is by sales you know and we have access to sales data. So you know when we’re predicting these trends and we’re creating images around the trends, we can absolutely tie them to revenue and to search as well. To see whether or not customers are starting to look for the types of search terms that are related to those trends and it’s really, really gratifying when that starts to come through. And you know to your point, it’s a little bit of chicken or the egg, right, because we happily predicted, but we can’t kind of pull it out of nowhere. We have to see some sort of evidence that these trends are happening and yet we don’t want there to be soo much evidence that the trend is already kind of saturated the marketplace and we are behind the curve. So it really is both an art and a science. A lot of it is just about pattern recognition, about ingesting a whole boat load of visual culture and articles and conversations and anecdotal feedback and living our own lives and then pending a lot of wonderful spirited debate amongst ourselves to talk about what we think you know is going to be the most influential trend shift on the aesthetic field. But then we always have to root it, sometimes a little bit retroactively. First we might say, oh we think this is a trend. Lets now go see if the data supports it. But we must have that data piece coming through to make sure that we’re not just kind of, I don’t know, not making stuff up, but you know that we’re not totally missing the mark anyway.

David Kruse: No, that makes sense. And what are some of your – I know we’re getting near the end here, so just two or three more questions. What are some of your strongest like signals as far as what are your predictive trends? Like do you have some – you don’t have to give all of your secret sauce away of course, but do you have certain blogs that you kind of that are very good indicators of what might be happening. Yes, is there any?

Pam Grossman: Yes, social media has been amazing and I think anybody who is in the space of certainly visual culture will agree with me on that. The fact that there are now algorithms which literally are something new what people are talking about and what images are the most shared and who is the most followed and what’s the most re-tweeted, I mean that stuff is gold. But I will say that a lot of people get hung up on that and often that can just be an echo chamber, right. Like it’s great to see when a lot of people are talking about something or sharing something. But as far as my team is concerned, that’s only one ingredient and it really has to have a richer context for us in order for us to be able to put a stick in the ground and say that we think that this is a trend that’s here to last, because we have to bear in mind we not only have a responsibility to our customers, we have a responsibility to our contributors. You know we’re guiding them and we’re telling them that they need to be creating certain images on these certain trends and their livelihood depends on us being right. So we take it very, very seriously and we make sure that there’s a lot of thought and a lot of research that goes into the trends before we start asking our contributors to create content around it.

David Kruse: Your job sounds tough. I don’t think I’ll be very good at your job, I’ll be honest.

Pam Grossman: Its so fun though.

David Kruse: It sounds awesome, it sounds great.

Pam Grossman: Yeah.

David Kruse: You’ve taken all this information and data and synthesize it and then like okay, you think this is going to happen, so yes I mean its impressive, but yes it will be very interesting to get in your head and your teams head and see how you guys are making that happen.

Pam Grossman: Thank you. I mean what I love about it is its very left green and very right green, because I am someone with you know a strong artistic background. The fact that I am able to have a career, where I get to think about art and imagery all day is just the luckiest thing. But it’s also rooted in analysis and in making sure that we’re not only in making these predications, but that we’re communicating about them clearly too to our contributors and our customers and so that’s why I love it. It’s a really holistic job and it really stimulates my entire cerebral cortex. So I feel very, very fortunate and I have a great team that I work with who are all smarty pants on their own right.

David Kruse: Yes, I’m curious, your team, what type of background does your team have? Is it a big variety?

Pam Grossman: Yes, everybody comes from a slightly different orientation, which is great. We have some people who have a little bit more of like an editorial kind of journalism type background. We have some people who have more of an advertorial background. We have some people who have a little bit more of an artistic background. So it’s a real kind of complete melting pot, but there is so much cross pollination between us, that we’re also kind of like one mind as well. You know if we’re all kind of synced up and getting on the same page together, which happily we are and more often than not.

David Kruse: That sounds fun. So two more questions and then unfortunately we should probably end it. So one question is, can you – and maybe you can’t share too much, but can you share any predictions for the next year or two?

Pam Grossman: Absolutely. Some of the predictions actually are in our book; that is called Creative In Focus and there are six trends that we’ve predicted which I’m really happy to say are taking off as we speak. So I don’t know if we have time for all six, but maybe I’ll just pick a couple and start talking about them. So one is a trend that we call Divine Living and this is a trend that really speaks to the ways in which people are looking for more meaning, for more spiritual texture and messaging coming from the brands that they interface with and we’re seeing it happen in the rise of a lot of kind of new AG aesthetics and language. Even if you think about like the pantone colors of the year, they are rose quotes and serenity, which would sound very, very gratifying after we predicted the trend, so that’s been really, really incredible to see take off. We are seeing search terms like integrity, mindfulness, mystical, spiritual, all growing vastly in our customer search. So that’s a big one and that’s one that we predict is going to be here for the next at least couple of years I would say. And then another one I’ll mention is a trend that we call Outside Or In and this is a trend that causes that this idea of being an outsider, a rebel, a maverick is becoming far more popular, which is ironic if you think about it, that outsiderism is actually becoming popular and mass inculturated. You know certainly the U.S. election is a really good example of outside or in when you think about how the free being, people who are running now are all trying to position themselves as outsiders in different ways, whether from a business standpoint, a gender standpoint, a government standpoint. But you know we’ve also just seen a great deal of irreverence and attitude and non-conformity be embraced visually and in messaging, in all kinds of campaigns and all kinds of products that are coming out. So that’s been really, really neat on sourcing such terms like bold choices, rebellious, stand out in a crown, maverick, all sky-rocketing there, here. So those are two of the ones that I love and that come to mind.

David Kruse: Yes, I think you nailed both those on there, that’s for sure. And I think I was probably a little bit ahead of the trend. In 2005 I started a company called a Mindful Chaos. So I guess I was a little – that was about 10 years.

Pam Grossman: You’re such a combination. I’m like you.

David Kruse: Yes.

Pam Grossman: Wow! That’s great.

David Kruse: Beginners luck, right. That’s like the only time probably I’ve ever gone ahead of a trend by 10 years.

Pam Grossman: Your soo sure.

David Kruse: That’s right.

Pam Grossman: You might be a really great video trend analyst yourself.

David Kruse: That’s right, yes. No, I don’t know about that, but I appreciate the support. All right, so let’s see, yes that was great and so one more question. And so this one, let me see if you an answer to that, but I was curious, this is a little more personal. But when you’re walking around Manhattan and I’m always somewhat obsessed with Manhattan and New York City, so hence the question. Is there a place there that you find is visually inspiring or a place where you go and like oh no, and you just get excited about what you’re doing or just the visual component in general.

Pam Grossman: Absolutely. I am a damn junkie. Yes, my favorite thing to do is go to museums and galleries and I also love films. So some of my favorite places to go, you know certainly PS1 is a really great contemporary art museum actually out in Queens. It’s the contemporary branch of MOMA, The Museum Of Modern Art and you can always make some great discoveries at PS1, so I love it there. Of course I love the Metropolitan Museum of Art and that’s been my favorite place in New York ever since I was a little kid and I actually love not only their modern and contemporary art that they show, but I actually find a lot of inspiration in seeing art that’s hundreds or thousands of years old, because as we said earlier in the program, these themes are universal, these emotions are timeless and so that’s a really great place to get re-centered and to see that throughout time and in every culture we’ve had people who are using images to create stories about love, about fear, about connection, about spirituality, about community and so I find that to be very, very inspiring and it really helps. For me kind of get a little bit re-centered, because so many of us are on the web all day long. It’s so easy for us to get caught up in whatever the flavor of, not just of the month, now it’s the flavor of the hour, right, online and so by going to the Metropolitan Museum, it just reminds me what’s really important to human beings and no matter what the visuals evolve, have or into, those stories I believe are absolutely crucial and powerful and they are going to be here for a good long time.

David Kruse: That’s interesting. So you look at the or you think about the stories as much as the actual visual hues, the colors.

Pam Grossman: Absolutely. It’s important to know what is the message of the image, what is the concept behind the image. You know we dream in images every single night and there has to be something more to pictures than you know the fact that they just flash in front of our eyes. These are messengers. They are trying to tell us something and you know if we take the time to really pay attention to them, I think we can access profound levels of understanding.

David Kruse: Yes, I can tell that you think a lot about this, because you have such a wonderful way of describing. You know I would never describe a museum like that, but it’s great, yes. So I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing everything. It’s been quite interesting and I think that’s probably a good place to stop right there, because that was a nice way to hear how you get inspired. So Pam, definitely I appreciate you coming on the show.

Pam Grossman: Thank you so much Dave. This is a really, really fun conversation. You asked some great questions and I had a really good time.

David Kruse: Well, thank you and maybe we’ll have you on in a couple more years and like you can get some more trends for sure.

Pam Grossman: Absolutely, anytime, I’d be happy to and you know I just want to mention whether or not this makes it on air or this is something you might want to follow-up on when you post it, but your listeners can read the entire Creative In Focus book on iBooks. They can download it for free. So please you know feel free to link to it or if you need me to record a line saying that, I’m happy to as well.

David Kruse: No, that’s a great idea. We’ll link to it on the podcast. That’s a good idea. So I’ll make a note to do that, to get that and if I forget it you guys can yell at me. You want to make sure it’s up there.

Pam Grossman: No problem, Kelly can send you a link to it.

Kelly: Dave, I can make a computer link of them.

David Kruse: All right, excellent. Yes and we’ll keep this in the interview. So I’ll just sign off here to everyone else and then yes we can talk after. But I just want to thank everyone for listening to another episode of Flyover Labs. I’ve learned a lot and now I’m more inspired. So thanks everyone and thank you again to Pam.

Pam Grossman: Thanks Dave and thanks everyone for listening.

David Kruse: All right. Bye.

Pam Grossman: Bye.