This interview is all about virtual reality. Ryan is co Founder and CMO at Specular Theory. Specular Theory is a leading VR content creation studio and tech company based in Venice Beach, CA. Their client roster is quite impressive and so is the VR work they’ve done.
Ryan is a frequent speaker around VR and has quite a background around digital media, marketing and storytelling.
Here are some things we talk about:
-How is storytelling different using VR than traditional media?
-What has been the most significant moment you have had so far with VR?
-What do brands/marketers need to know about VR ? What are the common misconceptions?
Dave Kruse: Hey everyone. This is Dave Kruse and today we are lucky enough to have Ryan Pulliam with us. And Ryan is Co-Founder and the Chief Marketing Officer at Specular Theory. And Specular Theory is a leading Virtual Reality Content Creation Studio and Tech Company based in Venice Beach, California and the client roster is quite impressive and so is some of the key art work that they have done. So I’m excited to learn more about what they doing and Ryan is a frequent speaker around VR. Has quite a background around digital media and marketing story telling. So I invited Ryan on the show to learn more about her background and more about Specular Theory and the feature of VR. So Ryan, thanks for joining us today.
Ryan Pulliam: Thanks for having me.
Dave Kruse: And to start off, could you give us a little bit about your background, which is a nice rich background I think in media content?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes absolutely. So I basically studied Journalism & Mass Communication in collage, and I worked for a number of companies since then, but I think media and marketing has always been sort of the common denominator. I did a lot of with digital media, marketing and influencer and experiential marketing, working on both the branded agency side and really built my career I think around that. I think most of that stems from just me really loving the ways that products or brands can connect to consumers in authentic ways and I think what it really comes to selling [ph] products that people love and then being able to hold a business from those products. You know just a really genuine authentic way to connect in those parties then. You know in the same way that social media and mobile kind of changed the way that brands can communicate all stories to create that kind of engagement with consumers. I think VR just really takes it to the next level. And so I didn’t really have the technical background per say to create VR content, but I knew I had the passion and expertise to help drive it. You know after 12 plus years in working with brands and agencies, it was really kind of the perfect complement to my business partner now and starting Specular Theory.
Dave Kruse: So before Specular Theory, what was one or two of your favorite projects that you worked on?
Ryan Pulliam: We dealt a lot with ESPN. I used to work with ESPN and College Football and did that kind of right out of college and when I moved to San Francisco I got into social media and just one of the kind of first I guess consultants for a pop shop in the very early days, kind of running their end user and doing their marketing strategies and then when I missed LA, I started working a lot of with musicians and kind of celebrities who just really needed help with social media. So probably the biggest claim to fame was working on a social media campaign for an unknown artist called Andra Day and she literally had no social media, doesn’t know how to tweet, had no idea, like wasn’t on Facebook and I worked with another partner on that and we ended up getting a million followers in eight weeks and then she was signed for a record deal with Warner in 12 weeks, so kind of the perfect storm.
Dave Kruse: That’s crazy. So I know we are supposed to talk about VR, but how did you make that happen; a little sidetrack?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, a lot of strategy involved, but you know it was really just kind of about getting her voice out there and I mean at the end of the day she is so extremely talented and you really have to backup your products more or less, so she kind of made my job easy. But yes, it was really just kind of really using all the tools in social medial. We did a lot with You Tube and kind of coordinated videos that she was singing, that were cover songs of kind of recording artists that were about to go on tour and we knew we could leverage search trends there and really build her a brand, just around her story and then it was just me going out and having conversations in those social sphere to just get her on the radar.
Dave Kruse: Wow! Interesting, okay. That’s quite a good background and you kind of touched on both, what attracted you to VR, kind of that next level of the story telling that you could provide?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, absolutely. I mean I always kind of follow emerging tech and so when I was working for an agency down in LA, just kind of as a side story, I really wanted to take up kite boarding, and my business partner now Morris is actually the one who ended up teaching me how to kite board and then we just became really good friends and at the time he was experimenting with creating augment and reality and like definitive where the first developer came out, the GK1. He’s like, I think I can create something and I’ve been reading about it, so I really wanted to try it and I literally just went to his house just to see what it was all about and I was just completely mind blown. I mean I tried the risk costar around the [inaudible] and literally just put the headset down and quite my job at the agency and then never really left his side.
Dave Kruse: Oh! Wow, okay, that’s a good story.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I was all in.
Dave Kruse: I like it. And so what can you do with Virtual Reality that you can’t do with more traditional methods like social media and other means.
Ryan Pulliam: Oh man, I mean there’s just so many things. I mean I think for starters, it’s immersive. I mean I kind of have this new thing I’m calling, it is like anti flat entertainment. This means that you know up until now we’ve all been consuming this content on sort of tiny, rectangular screens and at the end of the day you know it’s flat. So I think just VR, just the fact that you’re completely immersed into a scene or a story and the fact that you can become a new person. I mean you can like literally see the world through someone else’s eyes and perspective and it’s just so impactful. You know it’s something that’s really just never been done before and its all new storytelling and I really think it’s going to transcend and transform humanity and on top of that, I just think it’s going to disrupt every technology we have now. This is the way that we consumer media, because really the fact that it’s so immersive is you know not only can you sort of hack your understanding of the world in less than two minutes through a compelling VR piece and drive empathy, but you know you are really going to transform the way that we shop, the way that we interact, the way that we socialize, you know everything.
Dave Kruse: Interesting. I have other questions I’m going to ask, but I’m curious, if you could expand more on, one project that you’ve worked on kind of that – kind of exemplifies how it’s going to change media and everything or at least where you think it’s going to go I guess, one or the other?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I mean there is. We thought of a lot of different projects. I think one of our biggest kind of case studies that really put our name on the map was, the great call perspective and so we had Perspective, Chapter One debuted on Sundance 2015 and really just I think drilled the conversation around using VR as an empathy machine. The whole idea behind the series is that you kind of essentially relive the same event through different people’s perspective and we chose very heart touching issues. So Chapter one was about a sexual thought that happens on campus. Chapter 2 was at Sundance once again this year and Tribeca was kind of taking on Police brutality and the idea wasn’t necessarily to make someone the hero, the villain or right or wrong. It’s just really about having people think, seek though things and live something through someone else’s eyes so that they just have an understanding of how things can escalate and that these things happen in the real world and we really wanted to kind of drive conversation around that and also just I think really prove the power of the medium. I mean another really compelling story we had was just randomly we were giving at Singularity University last fall and I was showing cinemas to everyone who was before the panel and this guy in a wheelchair came and up and wanted to see VR, so I showed him this perfect experience where you create a footage, which is a live action sort of experience where you literally get barreled. And I’m not thinking anything else, but I’m just thinking oh, you know like for me even as a kite surfer, like I would never get barreled. I’m not – I’m really on that level, so I just thought like cool, like this guy would probably just love the sensation of being barreled for the first time and he literally took the headset off and he just looked at me and goes wow, like I’ve never even know what it feels like to stand up. Because apparently he’s been, he was born with muscle dystrophy. His whole life he’s been in a wheelchair, his whole life, and my business partner and I just looked at each other and just wow! like this is just a whole other level and just way that you can change someone’s life in a way. You know not even thinking about it, it’s got all these different you know aspects and I think powerful experiences that can be created.
Dave Kruse: Interesting, all right. So we’ll come back to that, but maybe could you just give a brief overview on Specular Theory for the audience, kind of what you guys do? I think we have a good feel for it, but what’s the 30 second overview on it?
Ryan Pulliam: Definitely. So my partner Morris May and I created Specular Theory in 2013 and we really did it just to – we wanted to break new ground in the realm of virtual reality, storytelling and immersive media. So we are a content focused company. We work a lot with brands and studios and different content creators and You Tube stars, as well as produce our original content like our perspective VR series and so we are at the end of the day just focused on creating premium virtual reality content. Right now we are doing a lot of live action, cinematic experiences, but we have capabilities to do everything. My partner’s background is all in visual effects and then my background working with brand agencies. So it’s really kind of the perfect blend of being a production studio, a technology company and also a creative agency.
Dave Kruse: Yes, it is a perfect blend, and I saw some of your videos on your site and you have some pretty amazing digital effects. And so how do you build out some of these projects in VR. Do you have a team or do you bring on people for certain, depending on what skill sets you need or…
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, we’ve got, we’ve got pretty much everyone in house. We will bring on, maybe addition freelancers depending on the project that we need to ramp up, but for the most part we really drive the creator of every piece and I think that’s kind of become an important asset for us and especially with Morris’s background, we custom built all of our own cameras. So we don’t buy any other cameras or rent cameras in the market place, which is great, because it really gives us the ability to build the text to tell the story, which is unlike a lot of companies that often times end up telling a story because they are depended up on whichever type of technology they have. And so we really just come in, a lot of clients come to us and they have no understanding of VR, but they just know that they need to get into it and then we have some people that really have kind of scripted out ideas and wanted to complement the ancillary content and existing IP and so we work with everyone kind of in the same way. But at the end of the day it’s really just about you know crafting the best story in VR and really educating the client and working with their creative team, so that we can take their ideas and their stores and their assets and craft something that’s truly unique to the platform.
Dave Kruse: And how do you get the Specular Theory going. Who was first client and how did you land them?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I mean it was really just sort of well, Morris and I just hammering away at his apartment and you know creating as much content as humanly possible and especially at time and after a while we got to a point where we could [inaudible] with conference and we ended up – our first real client was Google actually.
Dave Kruse: Really.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, so we got really lucky with them and they continue to be one of our biggest clients and we work a lot of with You Tube. So it’s been an amazing ride with that.
Dave Kruse: Interesting. And so at first you were just training lots of content experimenting and then you got noticed because you started putting stuff out there. Is that essentially how you got attracted, You Tube and other folks?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, exactly. I mean we you know nerded out and went to every single virtual reality meet outs and conference that we possibly could and wanted to see everything that was out and really was more than a background. I think in the early days it was kind of like talking Chinese to each other, but at the end of day its really become I think our biggest dream because he could create everything and build new camera tech and want to experiment everything on the production side, and then I really came in as how could I take this talent, how can I take this content and sell it to brands and advertisers and kind of shared my ideas with him about ways we could apply those. Because he’s never, he’s only ever really worked in Hollywood, which his great, but this really had no understanding of the brand agency world and I think that’s really where we came together and so I just did everything I possible could to let him create the content and now I kind of joke, because I think at the end of day he did everything he said he was going to do and I did everything I said I would never do and that’s kind of how we ended up where we are now.
Dave Kruse: Nice. And do you have any other examples or projects that you are working on now. I just find that since it’s been such a new field it’s always interesting to see what people are creating? If there is another cool product?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes definitely. We just launched, we really just launched like our biggest and kind of most ambitious projects today for You Tube creator MapPad and his new You Tube grad series called the Game Off and we literally shot over four hours of VR content for the series. We shot eight episodes. Lot of issues involved multiple cameras, including drones and custom built systems that we never used before. And yes, I mean it was – we pretty much delivered over 45 minutes of over VR content, which is over 40 terabits of data and so they are releasing a new episode every week. So another one, Episode 4 just got released today, with metal gear solid and its going to go through for the next four weeks, there are eight episodes. So I definitely invite everybody to check it out.
Dave Kruse: That’s sounds cool. So is it about a terabyte a minute for high quality VR?
Ryan Pulliam: That would be, a question for my partner, but…
Dave Kruse: Fair enough.
Ryan Pulliam: But let’s go with that ballpark.
Dave Kruse: That’s a lot, we’ll just say it’s a lot.
Ryan Pulliam: It’s a lot, yes exactly.
Dave Kruse: And I’m really curious, going back to Perspectives, that movie you created, how – so you guys created that yourself, it sounds like or did you do that with…
Ryan Pulliam: We did that, yes.
Dave Kruse: Cool.
Ryan Pulliam: That was entirely original and really I have to credit Morris with that one. I mean he kind of created the idea for the series and then at the time we were talking to Sundance and we had heard about a new frontier they were going to pop some VR pieces and so we were trying to figure out what can we do that would great for Sundance in 2015 and ironically Sundance actually ended up putting us in touch with the director of road, Trishe who is extremely talented and she really wanted to collaborate and so really rose and Morris took it from there and that’s when they created, Chapter 1: The Party. And then we ended up working with her again for Chapter 2: The Misdemeanor and it’s been really cool and interesting and Rose is really great at understanding the technology now. It wasn’t like that as much in the beginning, but she’s just always been a real talented writing and I think she just, she kind of has the potential of what it would take to really direct and do something extraordinary in VR and just watching her and Mor work together they ended up, crushing it, all those pieces of Sundance and yes, it’s been great. We’ve gotten amazing feedback. I mean even after the first, the first one of Sundance we were actually invited by Tony Atkins to share the piece with the entire congress and State Assembly of California. So we went up to Sacramento and insured the Sexual Thoughts in there which was, yes, we were nervous, but yes was really well received and have to applaud California government for taking that on.
Dave Kruse: Wow! Yes, that’s a good story. And so what type of projects do you want to work and – or I mean I’m sure you want to work on a variety of projects, but are there certain projects that you kind of have in your mind that you wish you could work on or that are out there.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I mean I think so. This is really just about pushing boundaries for both like a creative and a technical perspective and so I think every project that we take on its usually bigger and better than the last. But we really don’t want to create things that are mimicry. I think a lot people have kind of done that up until now and they are starting to understand the importance of the art of storytelling. So I think we are, what we really strive at is kind of that narrative driven story telling components and typically, you its really hard for us to say no. So because of that, we have taken on some pretty ambitious projects, including the Your Tube videos just launched and you know even the live action surf experience. As you can imagine it’s hard enough to catch a barrel if you are not shooting VR much less if you are shooting VR. And so you had to build an entirely new custom camera rig for that that is you know water proof and that we could attach to the surfer, and we are constantly just looking for ways to innovate and really challenge ourselves and create something that’s really made for 360. I think there is a lot of misconception, there is not enough education out there but at the end of the day, like you can, if you come to us with a story or an idea that can essentially be created for duty and I could just as easily watch it on my TV or my desktop, then it’s probably not going to make a great VR story. So I think for us it’s really creating stories that can only be told in VR, in a headset.
Dave Kruse: Interesting, and what would, yes, what would define a story that’s perfect for VR. Is it more like you know when you see it?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes I mean it’s definitely carefully crafted. I think that’s where Morris has just been a huge asset and really tried helping to dive the creative. I mean, what a lot of people still don’t really realize is that it requires entirely different hardware, everything from the camera technology to your production pipeline, like how you handle it, post it, effects the way that you are dealing with characters and staging and blocking and lighting. And you know if you shoot something behind the scenes then its lot easier because you can obviously have equipment in there, a director’s chair or lighting for that matter, but if you are trying to create something specifically in 360, that’s not behind the scenes then, I mean you literally just have to figure out where to put the camera, how you want to move it, push the button and then everyone goes and hides. So there is no director’s chair when you are filming in VR and because of that, because the user has the freedom and the ability to kind of navigate and look wherever they want to, I mean there are so many factors that are involved with that, because you constantly want something happening around you. There are times like we did do it in our perspective theories as well where we do want to try and help guide the user and you might use audio or visual cues to do that but at the end of the day that’s their choice. They can still look elsewhere and not following that guideline at all
Dave Kruse: Makes sense and so Chief Marketing Officer, how do you get involved with the projects. Obviously you try to bring clients in and then try to – how else do you interact with the projects and the clients and pull it all together.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I mean I pretty much handle everything outside of production and actually creating the content. But I think, what I found my role to be a lot of lately is really being a VR evangelist. I mean there is so much education that still needs to happen and because I have the background with branded agencies, like I understand how they work, I know their deadlines, I can help manage client expectations which is a huge component in creating VR, especially when they are doing something entirely new. So you know I kind of have, I help drive the creative in the beginning and really speak with clients or anybody interested that want to do VR and find out what their goals are, their milestones. Talk about whatever KPIs they need to hit and why its soo tactful and because of that I can speak their language and then translate the VR kind of side to that and bring everyone together. So I do a lot of stuff mostly in the pre-production phases, with the development, marketing and then afterwards we’ll help distribute the content, as well as got great relationships with all the platforms. So we were able to kind of help them drive their marketing planning campaign as well.
Dave Kruse: Interesting. I guess you stay busy, I’ll just say, wow.
Ryan Pulliam: I stay busy, yes, it’s never boring.
Dave Kruse: Never boring. And, oh sorry – what do you think. Well I guess you already described it, but I was going to ask what was one of the, what was one of the most significant moments you’ve had around VR, but it probably us the one with that person in the wheelchair, it would have it…
Ryan Pulliam: Yes definitely, I mean exactly, I mean it was just the you know wow moment. It’s a very humbling experience just to have that feeling. So I mean there has been a lot of moments that have been significant within just internally, and with our company and milestones that we’ve overcome, but yes, I have to say so far that was truly just an epic experience.
Dave Kruse: And I was curious to know how you said that one of your main roles is being an evangelist. Do your clients every say – like are there enough people using VR. Do you get a sense for how many people are watching some of these content pieces you are putting together? And I imagine in the future there will be 10x of what it is now, but is that a concern ever?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes it’s definitely come up. It doesn’t come up as much as it is, let’s say last year. But I think we are finally at a point where our consumer VR is available and it’s just the market hasn’t necessary become main stream yet, but I think it kind of goes back to client expectations and really at the end of the day you are giving a client or a brand unique value ad and unfair competitive advantage when you think about what their competitors just to get in on this technology early. Because I mean VR is here to say and I think it’s going to transform everything and so while maybe it doesn’t have the metrics they are used to seeing on social media and… The KPIs, I think there is a lot to be said for just earned media and really since Google has You Tube 360 and every since cardboard came out, you know it’s obviously not as immersive as you are going to get on your VR, like a CP VR experience, but I think it’s really been a gateway and you have You Tube, like the platform there and Facebook now and Facebook 360 and all of these tools it at least can speak to audience I guess in the current times. But I have no doubt that it’s going to take off and be mainstream before they know it. So I just kind of say, you can sit and wait around for a consumer adoption or you can help drive it.
Dave Kruse: Yes and like you guys, I’m sure the brands, every time they are with you they probably learn a little bit more and more what might work for their brands. What else should like a brand or company do like, well we should try to this VR space, but what should they think about before they even approach somebody like you?
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I mean there is really a lot for them to think about right now. But at the end of the day, I think always comes down to why, like why do you want to do something in VR, what story do you want to tell and then speak out professional VR companies like Specular Theory or the other several that are out there that can create kind of premium quality content. But just really getting an understanding for how it works, I think there is a lot of education that needs to be done around that. I mean it’s extremely difficult to make from a technical point of view and also extremely difficult to tell a great story just from the creative standpoint and the traditional tools and kind of ways of thinking about storytelling really don’t apply. So I think a lot of times people assume, or they just want to task their production study that creates commercials, or they want to go to their social media, or digital team, or agency for that matter to product the VR contest, but the reality is that more than likely those existing kind of third party vendor they are using like cannot create it. I mean it’s just the cameras aren’t out there, they don’t have the experience and I’m sure that will change and a lot of agencies now kind of becoming a trend to have sort of an emerging tech, new frontier studio within their studio so that they can learn more about it. But you know it’s a learning process for everybody and I think it’s been an exciting huge opportunity for brands to really like dive in or they are going to get left behind, my humble is with them. But you know just to understand that it’s a new medium and with that things aren’t always going to go completely as planned, but they – we will overcome those hurdles as they happen and you just really can’t compare it to a traditional set. So I think just managing client exceptions and even for the VR side I mean it’s our responsibility to really facility that and to you know respectively communicate what’s happening, what’s going on and just realize that not everything is perfect right now, but we are in a great time for them to get involved and I think another big kind of misconception is that the technology isn’t ready or that they read about in those sets that people get dizzy or things like and you are not sure that does happen. I mean the reality is that you get sea sick or sick from a rollercoaster in real life, your maybe more prone to doing that in VR but, but really it’s like – I feel like the worst things that can happen is a bad VR content and so a lot of times people just haven’t seen good VR content and if you experience bad content, that wasn’t searched properly, that has – is using a lot of motion or just going against self practices more or less, then it is going to induce sort of rush.
So people are improving, and I applaud everybody that’s kind of a hobbyist in VR right and experimenting. Like at the end of the day we have three years when everybody else is doing this. So we just sailed that and we just created that much more content. But the platforms are ready. Like your VR is out. You got like eight major headset releases coming out this year, holidays of You Tube, You Tube 360 is an amazing platform and that’s one of the things too that more typically take on a project and create the project and we’ll optimize it for every platform, and we sort of platform agnostic in that sense. So when people talk about maybe, they got their headset out, okay well great well, you don’t do the hardboard, you still have You Tube 360 but people who don’t have hardboard and then for everyone who haven’t have the VR or oculus or device are then awesome, they get the boards most experience.
Dave Kruse: Got you, interesting, okay. And we are almost done with the interview, but I still have a couple more questions, and one is, in ten years do you still think people will consumer traditional media like TV and movies in the same they do now or will a vibe with the VR.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes, I think, I don’t know what the time frame will be, I’ll say that. I don’t know about 10 years, but yes absolutely. I think what’s really happing is like we are going from this information to age to an experience age and for the first time we have this ability to create first person memoires. So we are no longer spectators or watching things or reading things. So I think in the future you know it’s not going to look like two goggles in your head and it will probably go to, some type of glasses, looks like Oakley’s to you know like a contact lenses. I think it will definitely be a lot more, mixed reality, out of power lenses, I haven’t tried [inaudible], but I’ve heard they are doing things. You know I think, people will realize as much as they may have a fear of it now, but it’s actually just that much better and more – it’s a better learning processes as well. I mean if I needed to have VR in the middle school I would probably would have been a straight A student in science, but couldn’t grasp particles and aortic tables for reading on it on that flat page more or less. So I think in the future it will openly affect everybody that consumes online video, online content now. Will be grabbing for their headset or putting on their glasses and learning that way.
Dave Kruse: Have you guys done any augmented reality work or thinking about it?
Ryan Pulliam: We did a little bit of it in the beginning actually. We were creating some AR before we got into VR and it was great and we did some really cool dinners and reached out to brands. I think at that time it was a little too early for augmented reality. I think the next big wave is VR and then after that and that will later become AR, but I think at this time a couple of years ago was just too gimmicky and then what we were finding was as a user you go on your mobile phone, you have to open the app, you have your camera, and then you can point it at the target image and then whatever pops out of the target image, whether it’s a 4D animation or its turn static print into something more interactive its – you think it’s really cool, like once you maybe tell a friend about it, but then you never go back to that app. And I think what we found with VR is that, the minute you try something, you want more. Like you are ready for more content and you are hooked on this device, whereas AR just I think is a timing issue. But yes, I mean I think in the future it will be both.
Dave Kruse: Got you, and then the last question, which I don’t know if that’s exciting a question. Maybe I should come up with a more exciting one, but I was curious, to produce one minute and I know you are not as much in the production side always, but to produce one minute of VR, does it take a lot more time and effort than the one minute of traditional video.
Ryan Pulliam: Yes. I mean it’s definitely – people always ask us for, just the way that we did projects and cost and you know it’s still so hard to determine. Like you can’t really go to someone and ask how much it’s going to cost to make a movie without knowing the script or where your shooting or any kind of group of projects. But I think at the end of the day, the kind of the general, the general role, what we found is that you look at what its take to product a traditional video, then typically if you multiply that by three then you’ll have enough for VR. There’s just so many variables that kind of affect this and lot of that is because of cost and yes, it’s just everything, your are really just pulling everything from scratch.
Dave Kruse: Yes, yes.
Ryan Pulliam: There is no adobe of VR at this point. So the tool will get easier, but yes definitely expect longer turnaround time. Although they are getting much, much faster and I mean the fact that even just the UG project that we delivered eight episodes of like less than three months was amazing and a huge improvement from last year or a few years ago, when it’s a good four months to do one minute of 180 concert. So its constantly chaining every week.
Dave Kruse: That makes sense and will you guys sell any of that technology that you are building. You got some different hardware tech and I don’t know if you are developing software too, but will you guys sell any of that to third parties?
Ryan Pulliam: I mean, yes. As of right now we are not. We pretty much just have everything in-house for our production. But it is all proprietary and I don’t think that we necessarily want to get into the businesses manufacturing cameras, but whether or not we can leverage that later and people are interested in it, then we can go from there. But yes, right now it’s just basically a tool that we have that enables us to create great content.
Dave Kruse: That makes sense. All right. Well I think that just about does it. But I really appreciate you coming on the show and telling us more about VR. It’s quite interesting. I definitely read about VR, but I mean you are – I’ll have to say immersive experience, little play lenses was quite interesting to hear just what you guys are working on and I mean the Perspective is just a clever idea and so it definitely at least made me think about VR in a different way and I hope. I think the audience will have the same.
Ryan Pulliam: Cool, it’s my pleasure.
Dave Kruse: Yes, definitely. Yes, so I wish you good luck and thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Flyover Labs and thanks again Ryan for coming on the show and telling us about your background and what you guys are doing.
Ryan Pulliam: Thank you. Anytime.
Dave Kruse: Thanks everyone. All right. Bye.