E1: Ryan Rist, Director of Innovation at American Family – Interview

January 15, 2016


Ryan was super lucky. He was the first person interviewed on Flyover Labs. Any major mistakes or issues can be solely attributed to me, Dave Kruse. Ryan was awesome.

Ryan talked about past projects he worked on for American Family. The main project was monitoring driving behavior to better predict and assess risk for their car insurance product. Then Ryan talks about how he transitioned into innovation. And then about the future of the insurance industry. I love the future for insurance. It’s about providing value at every point and stage of person’s life. Instead of contacting an insurance company only when there is an issue, the future is providing value throughout the day. This could be through a connected home or safer driving or a number of things. The lines between this type of insurance, like auto, and another type, like life or home, will blur more and more.



Dave Kruse: Alright, welcome everyone. This is our first broadcast at the Flyover Labs and so we will see how this goes. It should be interesting, that’s for sure. But I would like to thank Ryan Rist for coming on the show today.

Ryan Rist: Thanks Dave, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

Dave Kruse: Ryan is a good guy and he’s the Director of Innovation at American Family. So, he is in the middle of a lot of different technology trends, so I thought he would be an interesting first guest to have on our show. Insurance right now, like a lot of issues are being changed a lot by technology, but insurance especially has several major trends with Big Data, Internet of Things, and Lion drones which isn’t quite major but… So, Ryan is going to talk about his background and more of kind of where he sees the future of insurance going. So, let’s just get right into it. Ryan, how did you become the Director of Innovation, are you just bubbling with lots of ideas or do you have like a good framework for Innovation or?

Ryan Rist: That’s a good question. I think you are just intellectually curious, a wandering soul and I sort of happened, I worked my way into this job, so I started in all seriousness not really knowing what I wanted to do, jump from premed to prevet to comp side, English lit and ended up saying, look I’m just gonna to go finish my under grad, go work for a while and started with Lucent Technologies and looking back on it, it is a really really interesting spot to land. So, this was in 2000 when the sort of dot.com bubble was being burst and Lucent like a lot of the infrastructure companies were supplying the technology and often financing it, sort of built out at the time which was 3G and so I sort of saw that crash happen from the inside and then my wife is from here. So, we moved up and I have been with American Family for probably 14 years and all of those jobs were kind of around technology and consumer behavior. So, either marketing, sales, and either it was sales automation or it was customer self service online which sort of morphed into some strategy roles and then in 2008, we really, another interesting project was this Teen Safe Driver Program where we put technology in teenagers’ cars and it actually would record them and send a video loop back to their parents, but the in-genius thing was it only recorded them if they kicked off the accelerometer. So, if they took a sharp turn or they slammed on the brakes, it would record a little loop. So, we did that and it was sort of the first time I saw how the insurance industry could go from being reactive to being proactive, how we could play a role in solving the problems instead of sitting back and waiting for bad things to happen and paying claims. So, that sort of inched our way into that and then eventually worked with Data Science Lab and I’ve been in Innovation for about a year now, so I think it is about intellectual curiosity, I think it’s about, you know, you have got to be interested in technology because technology is driving all of the changes that we are seeing and the changes in consumer behavior are driven by technology which may make it easier for businesses to get started, it’s making it easier for companies to add real value to consumers, you know, 30 years ago you didn’t need an innovation department and you didn’t have the changes that we have today and if you were an incumbent then you had power and you were selling products to people, you didn’t ask them what they wanted, you designed a product and then try to sell it and if you had distribution you had power because that was how you went to market right? So, I think all the changes we see today started with information and moved into change in distribution and now they are moving into changing the products and services themselves and it’s driven by in my opinion this exponential growth in technology.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. . . So, when you put that technology in the cars, did you see an immediate change in the behavior of the teen drivers? or did…

Ryan Rist: Yes, so the programmers.. So yeah to tell you a lot about that and about other things too, we were a small scrappy team of 3 of us travelling around the country trying to convince our agents that they should care about this because it‘s gonna engender great feelings for their customer base if they proactively save a lot of teens’ lives and that wasn’t hard, but they’ve got a lot to do, so you had to convince them to carve time out of their day to do this. You had to convince the parents that there were no strings attached, like no this is really free, it’s easy to install, we will actually help you get it installed and then the hardest was convincing the teens, which we originally thought that, I remember talking to our marketing department and so how do we market it to, you know, teens and we realized yeah we are not marketing it to teens, we are marketing it to the parents of teens and so teens you just got them more comfortable with gameifying the system. You know, look we are not here to spy on you and in fact if you do nothing wrong in the car, if you drive safely, the camera will never record you and that was the big switch for the teens, there was an angle for them not to be monitored. But we are not here to just check out what you’re doing. There is a game to play and we gamefied safe driving for the teens, so if you‘re safe, your parents will never see what’s going on in your car and the kids actually learned that. So, they quickly learned their parents were getting videos and some of the videos were crazy stuff going on in the car, you can only imagine what, you know, 16-year-olds, thank God they didn’t have this when I was 16. So, the parents would see this footage and the kids would not have their seatbelt on, there would be 18 kids in a, you know, 4-passenger car, they’d be swerving all over, they’d be not having their eyes on the road and so parents would quickly jump in and say look this is our car, we are paying for insurance, we care about you and your life, if we see one more video like this, we are taking the car away and for a 16-year-old, that car represents freedom, it represents so much of like the American dream is like being out and you know drive a car when you’re young and on the road with your friends and getting from point A to point B and not having your parents around you, so strong emotional connections for the teen, the parents had control over the situation and there was a system for the teen to work it, so that they use it to their advantage right and the way to work it was to take corners slower and to not follow so close. If you follow a car really closely and that car stops, you then have to slam on the brakes, so teens learned to not follow as closely, take corners slower, accelerate more gradually, it turns out all those things are things that keep you in snowy weather if you don’t take the corner so hard you’re not going to slide and crash, if you are not following so closely, you won’t rear-end. So, it gamefied some of those behaviors that lead to safer driving. So, yes, you see really quickly, we saw in a matter of weeks driving dramatically dropped down into a safer level and over the long term, we saw those behaviors sort of stick. We had University of Iowa came in and did an independent third party review of the data and the results. We started in 2008, so we have enough data now to show that it significantly dropped risky driving and if you look, a lot of people probably don’t know the stats on risky driving, but it looks like a massive exponential right-tailed curve if you at driving by age. So, 16-year-olds are 9 times more likely to get into a crash than a 50-year-old and then it drops way down and then when you get to be 80 years old, it spikes back up a little bit, and why is it, you know, accidents are off the charts for 16-year-olds, it’s because of lack of experience, it’s because, you know, we learn these things and that’s where it gets interesting with autonomous cars. How is that gonna work if we lose our experience driving. You know, what about semi-autonomous, where half the time we put the Tesla on auto-pilot and we are reading a book and half the time now we are driving, so yeah the Teen Safe Driver Program was really interesting, the incentives were well aligned. Unfortunately, the technology was really expensive; it was $1000 or $800 per car.

Dave Kruse: Wow.

Ryan Rist: And we knew that with Moore’s law, you know, cost was going to come down and now today, you know, 8 years later or 7 years later, that technology is essentially free because now there are apps you can install on your phone and you could put your phone up on a, you know, mount your phone in your car and it does the exact same thing.

Dave Kruse: The change in behavior, has that affected the actuarial models of American Family yet?

Ryan Rist: That is a whole separate topic in itself, because I think, when I think about actuarial models and actuarial science, I think about data science and Big Data and before they were sexy and it was called data scientists, they were called actuaries and actuarial science and it required a lot of data, you know, it required 100s and 100s of 1000s of driving years, the experience was you need a lot of experience, you needed, the attributes you used were a handful of attributes and that’s how the models were built and I think today there is new statistical methods that you can use with a smaller sample size to get similar results. There is now an explosion of different data sources that can be looked at. There is machine learning, you don’t have to set your variables up in SPSS and run on multivariate regression or whatever you used to do. There is new ways of doing things today. So, I think that is a whole different shift is what is happening to the guts of insurance as actuarial science and data science are kind of, the lines are blurring right? And, so I think that due to the change in the models, I think the traditional actuaries wanted more data, they wanted more driving years, and I think, you know, also on the business side, we were more convinced that this had value because the other thing we were seeing is this spike in satisfaction from the families that enrolled in this. So, we saw parents, 75% of the people said they were extremely likely to recommend somebody else, so the satisfaction jumped up, they were more likely to recommend, they were more like to stay with The American Family. We had anecdotes where we would talk to parents and they were in tears saying this program saved my child’s life, they were an awful driver, extremely risky, we put this in place, it saved their life. The insurance company saving somebody’s life, like that’s unheard of, and people hate insurance, they think we are out there to screw them right? They think that our job is to take in as much money and pay out as little as possible and we can talk about how insurance the whole model is screwed up, but that’s not the truth, like the truth is we don’t make a whole lot of money on insurance, it is a low margin capital intensive business and the fact we could actually delight a customer like that sort of blew our minds and I think it was an evolution towards where we are today with Connected Home and now we are thinking about the Internet of Things as what switched the models, flipped the model from being reactive to proactive and that is what I want to get into later, but let’s get into that now because when we talk about how insurance will become a little more seamless in people’s lives and the value aspect that insurance companies will provide more value to customers on a daily basis and that is a perfect example of saving somebody’s life or that is what the parents said, which is impressive.

Dave Kruse: Can you describe a little bit more of the vision I think is directly connected to the Internet of Things, it sounds like.

Ryan Rist: I think the whole insurance model and if you look at how insurance started back in London and at Lloyd’s or at the, you know, the coffee shop where they were insuring maritime vessels to you know go to the new world and the idea of risk transfer. It’s really really important at the macro-level. How many people would be able to own a home without home insurance that assures the bank that their 80% loan to value is gonna to get paid back right? You know, so think about the dream of American home ownership and how insurance is absolutely vital in that happening. Think about the jobs that are created just in the construction industry and the realty business and so, at a macro-level insurance frees up capital so we don’t have to self-insure ourselves, we can actually own a home, so we can buy things like an Apple computer and iPod and fun gadgets, you don’t have to self-insure and hoard money right? Freeze up capital markets, provides capital for those markets, and it is this oil that sort of greases the western economic engine. If you look at a lot of countries where they don’t have a sophisticated insurance, some of these growth markets like China, like, you know, you can go to a Caribbean island and see how it takes 30 years to build a home, because people there can’t get a loan, there is no insurance. So, at the macro-level it is really important. At the micro-level, you talk to consumers and they hate it and you think about why they hate it, well it‘s first of all I pay in every year to this thing that I hope I never have to use because if you use it people you know think the rates are gonna go up. How many products are like that, how many products do you pay a significant amount $1000 or $2000 or $3000 in a year and you get nothing back, year after year after year, 90% of our customers will never file a claim, so 90% of our customers will never use that product in any given year.

Dave Kruse: Wow.

Ryan Rist: Yet they pay in a lot of money and so then, you know, they see their rates go up and they say, well my rates keep going up, I haven’t had a claim. Well, yeah your rates go up, so does the price of bread, the price of gas, but you know it’s different, they are using gasoline, they are eating bread, they are seeing it day in and day out, so we call it a low-engagement category which just basically means we are not adding a lot of value day in and day out. Now, when somebody has a claim and their house gets burned to the ground, somebody is injured, a car accident, you know that’s where we are able to step in and do our job and what we call restore people’s lives and get them back to where they need to be and that‘s a really tough job to be in. You’re seeing people at their absolute lowest moments and you’re trying to bring them through and it could be very gratifying, you hear a lot of great stories where we help people to get them back where they need to go, but fundamentally that business model stinks, we are engaging with people when they are at their worst, we are not adding value day in and day out. Secondly, the product itself is really complicated. Can you tell me what your insurance covers and what it doesn’t cover?

Dave Kruse: No idea… maybe a little bit, but…

Ryan Rist: 99 people out of 100 probably don’t know that and I think the insurance industry first of all has excluded certain things because we have to make some money. Again, it’s you know a low margin capital intensive business, so we can’t cover floods, you know, we can’t cover certain things or we would just be, we wouldn’t exist right? So, there is always exclusions and then we add in all these different coverage options like do you want identity theft coverage or would you like these tweaks and add-ons and so the product which is essentially a contract is incredibly complex and you don’t know how it got priced, it uses your credit score which you don’t really know how your credit score is impacted and changed right? So, it’s not transparent, it’s really complex, we don’t add value day in and day out. So, at the micro-level, it’s bad and is ripe for disruption. So, you think about how we could do things better. You know, John Hancock has a great program now called Vitality. John Hancock is a life insurance company and they just realized, they woke and they realized, wait a minute, we actually make more money if our customers live long, happy, healthy lives, there is an incentive, why don’t we help them live long, happy, healthy lives. We know all the behavioral traits that lead to the diseases that lead to over half of the early deaths. Why don’t we help people and send people for those behaviors to do the things that are going to avoid the diseases, that are going to avoid the untimely death. So, that’s exactly what the program does. So, as you make healthy life choice decisions, you get rewards and you get offered all these things and it sort of gamifies just like the wearable industry is doing, you know, it’s tapping into your behaviors and it is giving you information about how you can live better healthier lives. So, that’s a great example of how I think insurance can flip this and be more proactive and IOT is a big part of that, it enables that to happen right?

Dave Kruse: Definitely, I am curious with John Hancock, is that more of a wellness initiative, are they working directly with healthcare people, you know, like hospitals, physicians or …

Ryan Rist: Well on the life insurance side, it’s more about working with the consumer, but the health industry has been doing this for a while. Actually, the health insurance industry is probably leading the way on the charge because there is a direct benefit to not smoking, to exercising, and to annually what you’re going to be paying in, what they are already paying out for health insurance right, how many times you’re gonna go to the doctor, so the health, the economic drivers are tangible and they are more apparent on the health insurance side, so I think they have been leading the charge. I think life insurance is starting to see some of those same things. So, I think the P&C industry and even the commercial industry are picking up on different angles of that. So, the home, for example, how can we prevent water damage. So, we have been deploying wally units and smart things units and really inexpensive water detection devices that alert you to a leak in a part of your home you probably never go look until it’s too late and you had flood damage and now you had to replace walls and dry wall and carpet right? So, I think the same sort model applies to other industries.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. From an innovation standpoint, how do you figure out what makes sense from an investment standpoint. The ROI, like you mentioned the monitoring for flooding, if you equip every home with that it probably won’t make sense because you only get so much money every year, you know, $600 or $700 per year for home insurance, so how do you evaluate what make sense or maybe over time costs come down, like with the driving or…?

Ryan Rist: Yeah, I think the return on investment, the economic drivers of all of this, how do you make money out of it, the people running the day to day business that’s what they immediately jump to and I think our job as innovators as we see ourselves as sort of the tip of the sphere of change, we have to identify the possibilities and I think we have to hone in and provide clarity for the business. So, we try to extract uncertainty and provide the main business an idea or concept that is more flushed out, more certain and so with IOT there is lots of ways that IOT could make money, one it could just delight people, make them super happy and make them all want to do business with The American Family and never leave The American Family. You know, an increase in retention like that for a business like insurance is worth a lot of money. You know, this is something like a utility where you pay in, you pay in every year right, so switching costs, acquisition costs for people are high for insurance companies, the market is essentially saturating, everybody has insurance from somebody, we are stealing from one another. So, it could be that we delight people and so when we run our tests we look at how does this program or that program impact satisfaction retention, likely refer other customers, brand perception and things like that. Secondly, it could be that we just lower our loss pool, so by deploying the device that it offsets the cost by some amount that we would normally pay out, so by providing you a $30 or $50 water detection device, we pay out fewer claims that are less severe and so it could be that that is part of the economic driver. And, the third could be that we just attract people who are better risks, people that care about this stuff, that engage with Connected Home technology, might just be less likely to have an accident in the first place or we could learn things about behavior such as people that are home more often as opposed to away. Maybe people that travel have a better risk profile because they are not using their home as much, maybe they should get some sort of advantage. All that stuff is yet to be determined and I think what our job is to test all of those and to drive out the uncertainty. So, we are not there yet. The other thing that I would advise all of the people that are you know looking at this, you have to look at this as R&D. So, I would pose a question back as what is the value of R&D. Intel spends 20% of their revenue, somewhere around there on R&D, Microsoft 13%, Nike 7%. So, what is the value of R&D and I think companies that do R&D successfully have proven over the long term, not the short term, the long term that it drives your products, it drives your services, it puts them at the edge, they are able to command a premium, and there is tremendous economic value and in fact the design institute has a metric, don’t know what it’s called, but it is a chart that maps the most innovative companies against everyone else and it tracks the value in the (_____22:40_____) S&P or the NASDAQ comparatively and there is a 220 some percent difference in value of the most innovative companies that are investing in R&D and the companies that aren’t. So, I think you have to believe that, you have to believe that investing in the future, investing in R&D does have economic value and then the specifics of where the money is gonna be made, I think, it is up to groups like us to provide some more certainty around that. I think the trap is to say we don’t know, we don’t know where the money is gonna be made, so therefore we are not going to do anything.

Dave Kruse: Yeah. Well that’s why it’s wise to only set a separate innovation team within a larger corporation as you can, you can be curious and try to answer questions that might not be relevant right now for a business unit, but it will in the future. So, I’m curious, wouldn’t you? So, how did you come up with ideas let’s say with detecting flooding within a home and so how did you come up with ideas and then how do you take it through the process and then what do you actually deliver to, let’s say the business unit? Whether can you deliver both? Maybe this is not a formal process, but guess that’s another question.

Ryan Rist: Yeah, you know, in terms of a formal process, you know, we are still learning and I think the heart and soul of any good innovation team is the ability to be agile, the ability to understand, you’re not going to, there is no formula that you can write out that’s always gonna work every time and there can be processes put in place and never change. We have to know that being in innovation groups means that we are agile. We are open to looking at new ways of doing things. I am just looking at, so Lean Startup is one process we use which is an evolution of design thinking and customer development and agile engineering, All these things have sort of come together and improved upon each other and so and then, you know, Eric Reese sort of coined the term Lean Startup and even since then there has been groups that have taken Eric Reese’s work and evolved it even further and so, Lean Startup is one process we use where you employ deep customer empathy like getting out there, talking to customers, honing in on the problem, and ultimately trying to come up with solutions and testing those in a really small controllable way that extracts uncertainty that determines where the value is at, determines the business model and economic value at a quicker pace with less resources. Typically, companies have a hypothesis, they go invest, they do the pets.com sort of approach right, invest millions and millions of dollars in building something and then hoping customers come. So, one process we use is something like Lean Startup design thinking, but we don’t have it figured out, I mean, we are continuing looking at how we do that better. How we identify ideas is by keeping our eyes and ears open. So, sometimes it comes from our startup community. So, we have a venture capital team that is out there in San Francisco and London and different parts of the world meeting with entrepreneurs and so we saw sort of IOT as this trend bubbling up from what they were seeing. Then, also we hear market pundits like BCG and KPMG and different people sort theorizing about certain things or it is often times just really really smart people that we are connected with or you know places like Stanford, we are part of the Stanford data science initiative which gives us access to really smart people who are thinking about things in a different way, but it is usually a combination of a lot of different market leading trends and thoughts out there about where the world might go, what the possibilities are, and we will even startup to see some market traction with a company here and there and then we sort of say there is enough here, we should explore it and then we go explore it and start to bring it in to some sort of process that extracts uncertainty, determines if there is a proper service there and then the last part of that is how do we transition that back to the company, that is probably the most difficult part of our job and it is part art, (_____27:04_____) very little science, you know, is there an appetite for it, do we have people who are willing to take a risk and talk to us and work with us, have we brought them in early, if we bring them in early we are usually more successful, does it line up with where they see the business going, can we resource it for them, offload, they have a busy job running the business, so how easy can we make it for them to plug in. A variety of decisions and issues that come up there that primarily revolve around human psychology and change, change management, right. So, yeah, so start to finish it’s difficult, it’s fun on the front end, it gets really difficult hard on the back end, but I think the whole thing has been enjoyable for me because it has been a really complex hard problem. How do you get a big company to change?

Dave Kruse: Yeah, your experience with the cars is probably perfect for this too, we are just going around talking to customers and the agents and that is probably what you do a lot with all these ideas. So, that is a probably good experience and we wanted to try to end by 30 minutes, we are at 28, but a couple of more things, one thing I want to just, in general, how many people are in the Innovation team?

Ryan Rist: We’ve got around 10 to 15. We sort of flex depending upon what skill sets we need at any given time, but it’s a relatively small team.

Dave Kruse: Ok, and what are your major initiatives? I mean, overall, if you have a major initiative?

Ryan Rist: Yeah, I think this idea, you know, driving a lot of it is this idea of differentiating insurance. Insurance is not differentiated today. I was at a conference and a guy , it was an insurance conference, and a guy showed a picture of a head of lettuce, he said we are selling lettuce, there is not a lot of difference, you know, when you shop for lettuce, is it fresh, maybe it’s organic, not organic, that’s it. Insurance today is commoditized and I think American Family is trying to figure out how can we do what Starbucks did to coffee, how can we, you know, how can we do what other people have done in other industries with water; if you can differentiate water, I believe, you can differentiate insurance. So…

Dave Kruse: Good point, good point…

Ryan Rist: So that’s what driving a lot of it and I think that leads you into things like IOT, both in the home, in the car, I think, that leads you into adjacent markets, you know, how can we, what’s the difference between insurance and security and protection, ultimately, from the consumer standpoint. It’s raising a lot of really interesting questions that I think are rethinking where we play. The lines between industries, I think, are blurring.

Dave Kruse: That’s interesting. Well, that’s one thing I want to get into, but we are running out of time. My other question is life insurance, health insurance, home insurance, I feel like those lines could blur up really with time as well, but I didn’t think about adjacent markets.

Ryan Rist: Yeah, that’s a really easy one, like, why do you have liability on your auto policy, liability on your home policy, you don’t think about the world like that, you think about you, right, Dave and your stuff right? So, that’s a real easy way and quick way I think insurance could break down silos. I think there is a lot of people working on this, there is, in fact in Europe there is some interesting things happening where there is just one product for you and all your stuff right? That covers you, you’re covered.

Dave Kruse: It covers home, auto, does it get into life or health (_____30:28_____) really?

Ryan Rist: Yeah sure, sure… I mean I think why, why not.

Dave Kruse: Yeah, yeah, interesting. Well, that’s exciting.

Ryan Rist: Transparency for the consumer, simplification for the consumer, adding more value to the their lives, those are things that you are seeing in the broader market, think of Uber and think how easy it is to go from point A to point B now, it should be easier to first of all transact with insurance companies and second you should be getting more and more out of that relationship.

Dave Kruse: Do you think there will be any more mergers in the insurance industry because of that, all right, or maybe you will just dive into adjacent markets (_____31:01_____) mergers.

Ryan Rist: I don’t see a lot of value created by taking one big insurance company and merging it with another. I think the value is going to be taking an insurance company and adding on some capabilities that maybe they didn’t have before. To me that’s where it gets interesting. I think right now you’re seeing, what’s the difference between ADT and American Family Insurance? You are seeing these sort of adjacent industries kind of battling for the same thing, peace of mind at the home right, that’s what we are all trying to be, your trusted source for peace of mind as related to your home and so we are deploying things like (_____31:41_____) which are home security solutions, we are providing those to our customers. ADT provides a similar product or service to keep you safe at home. So, I don’t see a lot of value created in giant insurance company mergers. I do think you know there is over 52000 insurance companies in the US on the P&C side. I think what you’ll see is not all of those companies can compete with the pace of change, a lot of those companies can invest in drones, they don’t have the resources, they don’t have innovation team, so I think you’re going to see the people that pay attention and that invest are going to come out on top, so I see a lot off fall out happening on a lower end of the scale, can a small regional mutual company make it in the future? Can they add the same value that folks that are investing in themselves can.

Dave Kruse: Interesting. Now that makes a lot of sense. Last question, to make that vision a reality, you know, more of a seamless insurance experience, let’s call it, what are some of the biggest hurdles or what type of technology you think is needed in order to make that happen or is it more business model oriented?

Ryan Rist: I think it’s already happening. There are peer-to-peer insurance companies like Lemonade, there are companies like PolicyGenius, Oscar, and Zenefits that are making the engagement fun and so through filling out some trivia questions about things I can offer you a quote for insurance, I no longer have to take you through this long arduous process of filling out an application. There are things like (_____33:21_____) Blockchain that are going to make, you know, you think about every dollar of premium that goes in, 30 to 40 cents of that is used for expenses, for people on the front end of that process, the back end, the IT infrastructure, so things like (_____33:37_____) Blockchain can make that transaction a lot cheaper, things like smart contracts right. I can just use weather technology to confirm that you had an issue that qualified under your contract and money shows up in your account the next day. So, I think you are going to see transactions can happen faster, you are going to see expenses get reduced, you are going to see security improved. So, why does the insurance company have to store all of your personal data that theoretically could be part of the blotching technology right, that you then permission various people to use. So, I think there are a lot of technologies that are out there. I think what’s going to make it happen, I think, is already happening. I think that the insurance companies, in any industry, the big behemoths, the incumbents that are willing to change, that pay attention to what’s happening, that focus relentlessly on a customer and the problem that they are having, I think they are going to survive and end up on top.

Dave Kruse: Interesting, Alright well, as I promised Ryan, it was pretty great, so that was brilliant and I appreciate your time Ryan and very interesting to hear more about the insurance industry. I think I can talk about this for a couple of hours, but…

Ryan Rist: I think people are sick of hearing about it, lets…

Dave Kruse: Yeah, yeah, that’s a lot of us, so thank you.

Ryan Rist: Thanks Dave.

Dave: Until next time.